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Davemart
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Here is a video of the build of the truck: https://www.trucks.com/2017/04/19/toyota-project-portal-hydrogen-fuel-cell-truck-video/ I am hoping that the engineers here will post some insights into the construction, as there is no commentary. That certainly looks like two fuel stacks to me though, on the left and right of the truck. Perhaps to enable efficient running at cruising speed as the stacks don't like variance? One stack closing down whilst the other provides cruising power? I am probably way off base! :-(
Lad said: 'Please explain why you need the complexity and added expense of an on-board hydrogen powered fuel cell to generate electricity for an electric motor driven short haul truck, when a battery could be used instead and charged once a day.' If you are confused about that, you really should study the subject. The answers are that a fuel cell system in total weighs far less than any battery system we can do, so the payload can be greater, and the truck can be refuelled in ten minutes, ready for another driver to take over and double shift the vehicle.
The Ballard cells are in buses, which accumulate mileage fast with their duty cycle, and so have been proven in actual use more comprehensively. That is no reason to assume that the Hyundai cells in cars will not do just as well.
Harvey; If you are using diesel technology that in a car or truck is quite a bit less efficient than installing a purpose built one, and of course need adequate ventilation for inside use etc. The case is very different for fuel cell vehicles, as if they have a plug to take power out work fine as generators, inside or out.
I meant to add that charging the battery entails 15% or so losses, why do that when the fuel cell can be in the truck if you are using fuel cells anyway?
I am at a loss to understand both the bitterness and the mathematics. Why would you use stationary fuel cells, which then have to charge an expensive large battery in a truck, which will in cold weather lose a lot of range when the fuel cells can be put in the vehicle, and the excess heat keeps the occupants and the small battery at optimum temperature with minimal loss of range and still zero emissions? That is aside from the fact that for any given weight the fuel cell vehicle will have more range even in temperate weather, as complete with the rest of the equipment and the carbon fibre tank it is far lighter than any battery we have. It can also be somewhat inconvenient if you need your fighting vehicle and the battery is flat, whereas a hydrogen vehicle can be refuelled in similar time to a diesel one.
Harvey: Hyundai are going to up the numbers to similar ones to the Toyota Mirai when they release the new model in early 2018.
Excellent news on improvement in a fine battery technology. In batteries though it is always the dog which does not bark which is the critical factor. What is the energy density by weight? What is the cost?
Darned if I would fancy paying thousands of Euros for second hand batteries, originally designed and already used in cars: https://uk.eaton.com/content/gb/en/products/electrical/xStorage.html?wtredirect=www.eaton.com/xstorage
Herman: The 1MW should be 864/2 = 432kg hydrogen Times 13 = 5616kg hydrogen per day
SJC: Thanks for the link. Looking through it they need reforming, on board in the case of cars, and it seems they have only built an RE for a Fiat 500 instead of powering the whole car using them, so perhaps it is rather bulky.
There would seem no reason on the face of it why HTPEM should be more bulky or weigh more than regular PEM stacks, but they are critical metrics for transport use.
The roll out which detractors said would never happen is now well underway in several countries. Ludicrously the most vehement are those who purport to support the electrification of transport, but refuse to engage with the fact that the overwhelming majority of the world's motorists have nowhere at all to conveniently plug in, and that in many places in the world seasonal variation means that batteries cannot conceivably provide year round renewable power for BEVs. China is looking to 100 fuel cell stations by 2020 also: https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/shanghai-releases-its-development-plan-for-fuel-cell-vehicles/
I had very little confidence in the Nikola One concept, which uses a whacking great battery as well as fuel cells, thinking it would likely eat into the load space too greatly and it was another loose money capital destroying piece of Californiana, but Bosch participation certainly adds at least a degree of credibility,
Whoever is hiding behind the corporate identity of eci: Have you got a neurotic compulsion to troll hydrogen and fuel cell threads on other sites? You have a site already to dispense propaganda.
yoatman: Hydrogen CF tanks are certified for 15 years at very, very low leakage rates.
SJC; Yep, just for long runs really. And unlike petrol hydrogen does not sour in the tank, so no need to burn it off periodically as you do (rarely) in the Volt for instance.. Some were saying it would leak out, so a couple of us over at Seeking Alpha ran the figures using the specs for the tanks. The calculations were not biased as the other guy was a big BEV fan, but it worked out to decades before the tank would be empty!
Germany will have 100 hydrogen fuelling stations by the end of the year. This PHEV can offer long range zero emission travel without lengthy refuelling times, and little range reduction in cold weather. The advances in the compactness of the system have been remarkable.
Ah! I have just remembered, I always have the air con on! Quite a hit, if that is what is causing the difference!
Putting in the numbers for my Peugeot 2008 GT line 110 EAT 6 Auto the calculator shows 42mpg, I get 37 mpg. Maybe because it was new in March?
Here are the specs: http://www.intelligent-energy.com/uploads/accompanying_files/Burgman_case_study.pdf mahonj: Petrol scooters and motorbikes are a very different matter to petrol cars, with far laxer emission controls. They pump out one heck of a lot of pollutants.
Hi mahonj. Where are you getting your figures from? I can't see them in the article.
SJC: The 180,000 tons of hydrogen is the total for Rotterdam refinery, not what this 10MW FC is to make. For a 10MW installation, and assuming maybe 50kW per kg, then I make it something like 4,000 tons a year of hydrogen, allowing some down time. That does not allow for only running it part of the time to make sure that only renewables are used though.
mahonj: One heck of a lot easier to ensure safety in stationary storage, I would have thought, and check performance before putting them in a car. This is serious news, both because cobalt is in tight supply and reducing the proportion of it is important, and because this, in my view at least, is a much more credible way of improving performance soon rather than solid state. A major technical advance.
That's electrolysis at a serious scale, and hopefully will start pushing costs down.