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Yoel Mechanic
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Bertrand Russell wrote a bit about the results of an authoritarian education (...how it teaches one the pleasures of cruelty...) This has been going on for a long time throughout history, and in many contexts. I suspect a lot of this stuff would not be out of place in medieval Europe, and perhaps in many rural communities. I would certainly like to learn more about this, and the contemporary social context.
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I like it!
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I reread what I wrote: I mentioned advocacy journalism. In no way am I implying the article in this section is lame, or an example of advocacy journalism. I just do not feel the use of the word fundamentalism is historically accurate in this context. My negative mention of advocy journalism is just some musings... but not directed to anything specific.
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R Nash: thanks for the history lesson; I agree with you and am glad to see someone who wants to use words in their correct and historically accurate context. I think this came about like this: there is a large group of Xtians who many find obnoxious, and they are specifically fundamentalist (and even were the ones who applied this label to themselves). Well, some in the media found certain Jews to be similarly obnoxious so why not call them fundamentalist too. Just another example the sloppy lame advocacy journalism. The reference to Orwell is terrific. The manipulation methods are right out of his play book. Unfortunately, some of the advocacy journalism is using the same methods too (War is peace, etc.)
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In American law, speech is constitutionally protected unless there is a "clear and present danger", a doctrine from Oliver Wendell Holmes. "Imminent danger" is another phrase that has been used, with a lot of case history to elucidate how this has been implemented. I think the laws in Israel are quite different just as the nature of their supreme court is very different (it is an independent, self-perpetuating institution that can engage in political activism as the judges see fit. Robert Bork wrote a book about it, btw) I rather doubt that any of these guys would have their speech or writing restricted in the US, in regards to anything I have seen posted on this website (unless they were saying other things in other places...) In Israel, I think it depends solely on the personal judgement of the judges.
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Here is my question about the 1mm rule: Anyone have info about what is the tested maximum length to make a proper seal? Why do I ask: first curious to know. Second: I am wondering if 1mm is too long.. which seems plausible. If this is so, then one might wonder if this rule was arbitrary and after the fact (in which the the NYPD really slipped up in making their case). Of course, this is speculation, first I would need to know what the proper seal needs to be before further speculating.
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>We are also on the same page when it comes to old fashioned family values as opposed to the reform secular rabbinate who unfortunately had a big hand in destroying the moral fiber of this once great country. Posted by: Frum but normal | November 08, 2013 at 12:25 PM --------------------- Frum but normal: what you write is neither: All Jews have a whole lot more in common with each than with a religioun that, at best, is historical distortion of Torah hybridized with avodah zarah. Moreover, Jews are connected in metaphysical ways (that is, if one takes their frumkeit seriously). What you wrote seemed so unfamiliar to me that I really thought we might be getting another one of these parody treats, which happen here from time to time (someone pretends to be an over the top frummie just to create more negativity towards the actual frummies). But in this case, as bizarre as it sounds, I think this is no parody.
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>Eh, the part that bothers me most about this is that Tuvia Singer is going to get his panties in a wad and release more of his rhetoric. I'd be curious to hear what is so bad about R. Singer's rhetoric. For my part, I happen to like what he has to say: I've listened to all his mp3 lectures, and learned quite a bit. I have garnered many lessons on how people are manipulated (lessons that can be applied to many venues, not just the messianic meshagos) I also enjoy him personally; however that's a matter of personal feelings (I like him very much, at a personal level) but if one feels otherwise you can get the same content of his analysis from similar activists (such as Rabbi Skobac, in Toronto, also a nice guy, but much more laid back) or various books
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I did not gain as much clarity on these halachos from the discussion as I would have liked. Consider these categories: 1. obligatory (ie required, presumably with punishment for not fulfilling the obligation) 2. recommended 3. not recommended 4. forbidden I was unsure from the above discussion and felt at times the boundaries between these categories were obscured, or conflated. Let me give a contrast with American law to see the point. A US Navel officer once told me that although she received extensive training in the Navy she would not attempt to save someone from drowning. Why? Because she learned in her training that here is no obligation to save anyone in US law. However if you attempt to save, and something goes wrong during the rescue you open yourself up to all kinds of litigation. She has made her decision to protect herself in advance. I've heard that there are various so-called Good Samaritan laws that could serve to protect someone who does stop at a traffic accident, for instance, and attempt to save a life. I am not familiar with the details, but this further underscores the concept that there seems to be NO obligation to save a life you come across under such circumstances. In fact, volunteers have need of protection from legal action. Therefore I hope people can see how more clarity is needed when understanding any legal system; and how it operates historically and in current contemporary life.
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I'm wondering what a more accurate assessment would have been. I would like to know if the assessment was very much undervalued and would hope to see the figures and information supporting that claim.
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The appropriate course of action when seeing an immodestly dressed person is to act neutral and saying nothing. And this is what you usually see. In a chariedi area there were countless who passed her by in an unremarkable way. I think you will find practically everyone agreeing (chariedi or otherwise) that spitting (not sure if he spit towards her, or "on" her) is ridiculous. Now, if someone actually wanted to influence someone to dress modestly the way to do this would be to say hello, how are you, smile, smile, smile and keeping smiling and say nothing about how to dress (far be it from me to give advice, however). One should not expect the "nice" tactic to work... who knows what will happen, but that is only thing you can do that could have the potential to work.
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Informational: In the current parlance of spoken Hebrew, if someone wanted to use a word that is clearly and unambiguously offensive they would use the word "kushon". Why not ask someone familiar with Hebrew? Considering that classical Hebrew and the Torah is still in current usage, and very much part of the Hebrew language, it does count as one example of how the word Kush and Kushi is used. I've heard these words to mean a wide range of sentiments, as well as denotative and connotative meanings. I think Kushi is being mixed up with the word Kushon, which is the actual term used when one wants everyone to know they have ill-will and intend to be nasty. In general, I have found than anyone who uses these terms, it is clear enough what they mean: kushon has a negative denotative meaning and is just plain nasty, and kushi is determined from context, but should usually be avoided as it can have a negative connotative meaning even though its denotative meaning is sometimes used in a plainly neutral way.
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N.UltraMarine: thank you. :)
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There is no evidence of prejudice or bigotry in the video. When demonstrators with a camera are asked to leave a store that brings out the question "what are the motivations for the being asked to leave". Of the numerous motivations, the question of bigotry will be raised. However asking a question does not imply an automatic answer. Are we being asked to be prejudiced and just presume nefarious motivations without evidence? You will have provide evidence to back up the prejudicial insinuations.
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Still not clear why they don't become Modern Orthodox or Hirschian. Posted by: Hal | June 23, 2013 at 08:40 AM ------------------------------------------- Wonderful question. it seems that once someone feels bitter about their situation, they tend to chuck it all. Its complicated, and i have not found a simple answer to you question. I liked the way it was pointed out that one guy's secular education ended at age 13. I recall that in a typical reform sunday school, religious education will end at age thirteen. We've all heard the joke about a reform clergyman who when asked to rid the synagogue of mice says "Oh easy, i'll give them a bar mitzvah and we'll never see them again". I now see how parallel the situation of education of what you see as silly stuff ending at age 13, and the results. I've heard countless time (in the frum velt) "oh, they get so little Torah education, and you see how messed up they are". Yeah, it is really SHOCKING! The misconceptions of Jewish college students is staggering. But how about the misconceptions of a yeshivah student with a poor "English" education that coincdentally ended at 13 years old? (and 13 years as poor at the lamest "sunday school" education). Can't people (i'm talking about frum educators here) see the problems this is creating? And a guy is supposed to give up Shabbos and eat treif so he can get a freakin biochem degree??? That is really sad! Now college, secular studies, or Yeshivah University is not a panacea. Even at Yeshivot that have college prep programs, there is many more pieces of the puzzle that still need to be added, and this conversation is relevant only for those who actually like the frum world. But adding solid secular studies is part of the puzzle. And the dismissal and downgrading secular studies is part of the problem. And if you think the so-called reform are wrong to end Torah studies at 13, it is just as wrong to end secular studies at age 13.
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Hey, Thanks for the yaffed.org link. From their website, I would characterize them as a grassroots organization that is putting a lot of effort in stating some plain old fashioned common-sense. They should appeal to people who are still in touch with reality.
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Mendel; there is a lesson to learned from her tragic experience. First according to the book: "off the derech" by Faranak, Margolese a lot of these kids do not leave the fold but are rather pushed away. That certainly sounds plausible for this case too. Once pushed away she was exposed to unnecessary risks that her background did not even prepare her for. The lesson to learn is to not push kids away, but be willing to make flexible decisions that fit the valid inclinations of the individual. Consider this hypothetical. What do you think of parents from this community who say "It is not typical for our community to send children to college, but if you want to go, we will work with you to make it happen. Perhaps you will consider YU or Touro, perhaps Brooklyn College and live at home, and then when you're ready grad school at Harvard. Other possibilities exist, such as various community colleges or state universities too. Think about it, and we'll talk about it more" And guess what? You are seeing more and more kids from this background going YU, Touro etc. These narrow rigid boxes are just making things worse. Do you think, in the spirit of rachmones, this might have played out in a more positive way? Also, part of the reason we are hearing about her story is because it is so outrageous as well as totally unnecessary. So we should learn a lesson from this, but make it the right lesson.
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YL: re: education, if it was only to make docile workers (who presumably would be competent)I wouldn't think things would be as bad as what is going on now(and not everyone fully appreciates just how bad things have gotten). Docile in what way? I don;t think some of the big city high schools are even graduating "docile workers" or any sort of workers at all. And why are kids not capable of sitting still? (as you mentioned in an earlier post). That doesn't sound so docile.
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Jun 5, 2013