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CARL75014
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When concept cars look backwards, they don't make anybody dream of them. Want to see something similar but set with a > 50KWH Battery pack, that could run > 200 Miles on a charge, and have a range extender ICE engine to get to 600 M total.
Not sure I see any interest for any new non-sense 1st Gen Hybrid in that space... Already crounded of things not selling due to very high prices for no tangible benefits. What we need from Audi is a true eTron model set on a real car, prefferrably a Q5 or Q6 or Q7 SUV, with ideally next gen 50KWH 2X Battery, a set of strong electric engines making an electric-only tracting base, and a range extender working as pure generator.
What a shame. Engaging so much public money to re-invent the Volt1, in a not so good manner, instead of at least trying to invent the Volt2 or 3, ahead of GM... Shame. For me starting point should have been at least a 2X Battery - versus Current 18-24KWH standard - Let's say 50KWH capacity, but set with also 2X Instant Power, not just more capacity. Use better Electric engines, more powerfull ones that can do zero to 130KMH on one fix gear (Like recent UK demo on SuperCharged.com). Put 2 : One per Axis, or even 4 : one per weel, with electronics to control them properly. Having that base line set, you can move to a full electric drive train, the ICE engine being only used as a pure Generator Range Extender optimized for constant speeds and high power generation (Micro Gaz Turbines...), never having to assist mechanically in tracting the car, like it has to in current Volt due to not enough Instant Power available in its current battery (For High Motorway speeds and mountains). Means central gearbox and transmission can be cut, and room and weight, and $ freed can be used to fund the greater battery pack. You put all that in an SUV Formfactor, price it <$60K and I buy one next year. Simple. Invent the future, not the past.
Both Hybrids are nowhere closed to the dreams the initial eTRONs had generated, nor have any chance to play as the "car of the future" reference in their categories. How can Ausi come with a 9.1 kWh battery and present that as a top gun today ? This is just ridiculous. We want to see plug in hybrid models with 35-50KWH batteries today, all electric tracting drive train, and a solid range extender on top of that to allow 600KM combined range. This is just another two 1st gen hybrids forever that are just wasted developpement $. Back to work Audi, stop these non-sense short-termist trials. Return to real eTRON concepts and make us dream of the real EVs of the future again.
This is an extremely interesting initiative for me. All other initiatives being limited to ridiculous 3.7KW of slow charge, their are planned to fail as soon as next gen 50KWH batteries will replace current 24KWH standard, not mentionning when the dreamt 500M = 130KWH battery will come, requiring as much as 36H of change on 3.7KW against a perfect "overnight" 6.5H on 20KW. Plus could be used to fast recharge current 24KWH packs in 1.2H only. This is a FUTURE PROOVED wireless charging investment, only type of things people should put their money on. Well done.
Nowhere this article gives the voltage used here. AH alone are interesting but we need the WH to asses the real capacity interest for EVs, after multiplying by the voltage, plus we need the instant W of power density to check it can fullfil all purposes including high speeds on motorway and mountain claims, and for the cycles we need to know de % of capacity left after 1K, 3K and/or 5K deep recharges, not just 100. As DaveD points out 200$/KWH and 500W/KG is a (dream) target that would allow next gen 50KWH battery for $10K and 100KG only, and best dream 500M capable 130KWH battery for $26K and 260KG... Then need check the instant power density and the cycles it will last, and the manageability and safety. For the cycles I would need to recharge a 50KWH battery 200M range only 2x per week, plus 1x for week-ends 1x per month, plus may be 8 per vacations trips in the summer, means # 124 x deep charges per year, so 10Y would require 1240 x charges with <10% capacity loss. Possible with this ? With 130KWH/500M Battery I could accept less clycles only charging once per week including week-ends plus 4x for vacations, would make 56 x Full charges per year only, so 10Y could work with only 560 x cycles... Can this do it ?
They could have pushed the enveloppe a little more, at least to current 100M 24KWH packs, and tomorrow 200M 50KWH packs, and then dream packs for 500M = 130KWH.... I plan to jump into a Plug In Hybrid with Range Exterder SUV within 2Y assuming one comes out with a >50KWH battery pack, in a full electric tracting base, still with an ER. Won't jump before than, but trends on the 40M pack are pormissing to get the 200M pack earlier than expected so far...
This could become closed to the ideal high power battery, for the next generation of Plug In Hybrid with Range Extender, to put in an SUV formfactor, to built the car of the future of my dreams(In a future BMW X4 for ex). With 100 Wh/kg (205 Wh/L), the next step 50KWH Battery (Allowing 200M=300KM of all EV range, means 2 x charges per week for local commutes, instead of one every night) would weight 500KG and take 244L of space, and the power released (Instant or sustained ?) could be as high as 250KW(#300HP). If it could charge at least at 22KW without loosing cycles (10% of the power it can discharge at, should be easy bet), then an (acceterated) charge on 22KW Tri-phases charger would only take a little more than 2H, when needed outside the home, and ChadeMo fast-charging could be even much faster. While at home it could "slow-charge" overnight in 7:30 on a 6.7KW charger, to help with the local grid... Assuming 2 x 125KW electric engines (1 per axis), or 4 x 62.5KW engines (1 per weel), it sounds to me this would be powerfull enough to allow tracting that SUV exclusively on Electric motors, even at high speed on the motorway, and climbing the mountains..., so the complex gear box and transmissions kept in current (genius) GE Volt to allow ICE engine to support the electric one, to deliver these extreme efforts, could be pulled entirely, freeing space, and weight, and $ to put them in this battery, also moving the Range Extender to a pure Electrical generator optimized for constant speeds exclusively (not having to tract the car at all any more), hence that could become 2 x little Micro Gaz Turbines like in the genius Jaguar sport car prototype eyed at last year Paris Motor show (Using these UK gaz tubines : http://www.bladonjets.com/technology/). ....And my dream car of the future would come true. Did I miss something here ?
Their original prototype with Micro-Turbines was worked with this small UK company whom Tata Group owned Jaguard/Range Rover is still working with (See news section). http://www.bladonjets.com/technology/ Looking at the extremely small size of these micro-turbines and their increadibly low weight and effectiveness at high constant speeds, I would certainly give them a little more time to implement them as possible Range Extender of choice in a future Plug In Hybrid (Please try an SUV this time with a next gen >50KWH batery pack!)..... This still makes me dream even if I admit there may be a ton of challenges to deal with the extreme heat generated, especially while parked in small a closed garage. But a real dream if these technical challenges could be managed, and I believe they can as in former Chrysler prototype....
This is so disappointing versus the original eTron concepts presented in the previous years that calling it eTron is a shame for Audi. This is just another 1st Gen Hybrid. Pulling, nothing, just adding too small Electrict Engines and far too small batteries into an old fashioned mix is just a non-sense. Will add costs and complexity, and maintenance issues, for negligible benefits. Audi should never call eTron something as poor as that. Should reserve eTron to real "Car of the Future designs", with full electric tracting base, larger battery > 50KWH, with a stronger extended range generator. Nothing lower.
This is leading to the right direction where I would expect a Volt2 to go. Modern SUV formfactor instead of old fashioned Berline, more power in the Range Extender ICE generator (Enough to load the battery while power the car traction, when heading to places with no possibilities to recharge ?). Missing is the size of the battery. I need to find a 50KWH pack before jumping in that fray replacing my former beloved BMW 535DA by something new like that.... GM is getting closed to the real car of the future, just need a little extra power added into nthat equation....
71 kWh lithium-ion battery pack this is really a dream, for any future EV owner. It clearly surpassed all previous records with 50KWh packs at Paris Motor show last year... But yielding only 200KM range from that is -40% below my expectations. May be due to RR very heavy and big car formfactor ? Or a conservative assessement so they can over-achieveit ? For me the perfect EV dream would remain a 130KWh Battery pac fit in a slightly lighter SUV formfactor, and providing 500M or 600Km of full EV range. Plus, on top of that perfect full electric tracting base, an Extended Range Generator should still be mandatory, even if battery could bring best dream 500M of EV range, and it seams to be missing here, while best rechanging time is quoted to be 8H ! Means owner will need 2-3 x full days and nights to get from Paris to St Tropez in the summer... Just forget it. RR buyers won't accept to return to diligence times.... Other than that, this car sounds beautifull and RR kept a perfectly polished best-in-class image in the world, but unfortunatly my 50-75K$ maxi budget for my next car change, this year or next, won't buy it, plus I can't dream of a promo to fit my budget here.... So good luck RR with this marvel. Hope you complete it with an extended range, and improve this full EV range to at least 300Km if not the double, making sure the added extended range ICE generator can recharge the batteries while also feeding the electric engines tracting the car...(Micro-Turbines like Jaguard ?).
Another interim Hybrid, that has no interest for me. What I expect is a Volt-like Plug In Hybrid with extended range and a 50KWH battery in a nice SUV formfactor, with full electric tracting power train and a good extended range power generator, all that fitting within 50-75K$ pricing battery included
Dear BMW your customers wait for an iX6 or better an iX4. Please Stop working on i3 and i8 gadgets for the press. Start designing "real cars" with all-electric Plug-In-Hybrid drive train, and an extended range generator on top of that, and a good battery >50KVH providing a 200M all electric range. I need to replace my beloved BMW 535DA within 1 year, 2 maxi. I'll buy nothing else than an SUV this time, but want a car of the future as always, like a BMW Volt in an X6/X4 SUV formfactor. .... Or I'll buy the Volt SUV when it comes out, if you leave me no other choice and if you continue with your meaningless 1st Gen Hybrids / Power-Hybrids forever (Those pulling nothing, just adding un-efficient add-on electric devices and weight and complexity and costs on top of the old staff).
On my side I'll check : 1/ The right number of usable KWH capacity needed 1st Mini is 50KWH for me, to start adopting Plug-In EVs with extended range, in order to get #200 Miles of pure EV range with full comfort, and only 2 x charges per week for my local commutes,... up to 130 KWH for #500 Miles per charge, allowing no more than 1 charge per week for local commutes, plus full week end trips coverage, plus significant parts of vacation trips covered w/o any petrol). 2/ The Number of WH/KG, WH/Litter to see if my big battery can reasonnably fit in my prefferred SUV formfactor. 3/ The number of cycles the battery will do before falling <80% capacity (For >10 years usage, I'd want > 1200 x cycles for 50KWH battery, or > 600 x cycles for 130 KWH). 4/ Finally I'll check the time required to fast recharge it practically, since with <500 Miles of EV range I'll need to keep an Extended Range ICE generator, while beyond 500M of range, I could imagine to drop that security and move to full EV, .. IF and only IF the battery could be recharged in <20mn, almost everywhere, when that becomes available. 5/ Then I'll ask for the price of the battery that could do that, since my target SUV vehicle price is in the priceband of $50K to $75K, means battery can't take more than half of that amount, assuming a real full car of the future, with only electric tracting engines, and an extended range generator optimized for constant speed operations (Micro Turbines, or Rotational engines,...etc).
"resulting in a $710/kWh/96k = $7.40/kWh of usable energy per mile." If the 96 was Kilo Miles in the formula, then result should be $7.40/kWh of usable energy per Kilo Mile, not by Mile...
Why a central electric engine, that requires transmissions to the weels ? Why not downsizing that to 4 x electric engines, one per weel, or 2 x one per axis, and no transmission in between ?
@ Herm No 15K$ of battery pack can be OK. We're looking at a Mid-Range Audi SUV here, means >50K$ pricing range, not a cheap model. Audi can put a lot of batteries into that amount, as long they implement their own eTron concepts instead of following others' 1st Gen hybrids forever approaches : - Pull the huge central engine and gearbox and transmissions..., not needed any more. - Move "tracting engine" to all electric, ideally one engine/weel. They are light, cheap, efficient, resiliant. - Just put a cheaper/reduced ICE engine optimized for Power Generation, not for tracting, to cover for the extended range (Could be a new type of engines : Gaz Turbine, rotative... Things more efficiant at constant speeds). - With all the $ and weight and space saved you can fit LARGE battery packs, especially in an SUV formfactor ! This is what the Volt did magnificiantly, inspiring the world, with some differences. Why could that be done in Lower price bands and not on expensive cars ? I hate that "BOBO" vision that new Plug In Hybrids would need to come in lower price bands 1st. This is an historical non-sense. New techs always arrived in High End segments then migrated to mid range and low end as economies of scale take their costs down. - Audi has shown the way with eTron their lack of execution is questionning their image, and reason of being, for me. I own a beloved BMW 535DA that I need to replace within a year or 2. BMW will comout with nothing serious in that timeframe, too bad for them. I always looked at Audi as a valid alternative to BMW although never bought any so far. If they bring no mid-range eTron SUV in that timeframe, I'm ready to move from German Brands to US or even Japan Brands.
3Km all electric range, 1.3KWH pack...., this is just ridiculous. After having let the world dream of their advanced eTron concepts, how can AUDI lets us all down and come out with just another meaningless 1st Gen Hybrid / Power-Hybrid ? Nobody wants that any more. We want Plug In Hybrids with extended range. Question is to get to >300KM all electric range, with fast recharge capabilities, so we can recharge only twice per week for std commutings, making our life easier and batteries last much longer too. STOP THESE NON-SENSE PLEASE.
This confirms petrol prices will come up big times again in the following years, and this time we'll be ready with SOLUTIONS to avoïd suffering them. Thanks to the Volt, other Plug In Hybrids, and the full Electric cars. I bet this could accelerate our race away from Foreign Petrol dependance, to full electric alternatives. I'm just surprised that Battery costs per KWh do not connect with Tesla $200 using smaller celles compared to current Nissan $750 using larger ones, as well as most other Full EVs. May be the average that hides that gap...
I don't understand why no beloved German car maker plans a real "car of the future", than can totally replace the mid-range cars in which they excel. I only need the R8 eTron 4 x Electric engines and >50KWH battery put in an SUV formfactor, PLUS a mandatory "extended range" generator, but with A LOT MORE POWER than the ridiculous A1 generator, I mean capable to feed the car electric engines at all speeds including high speeds, while in the same time refilling the battery. My aim is to run 100% on electricity during my weekly commutes (50KWh making # 250KM range, means acceptable 2 charges per week and a long lifetime of my battery. No question to change twice per day and replace batteries every few years !). Then I must still be able to go on vacations doing >1000KM per day, a few times per year, and arrive at destination with battery full. JUST A SUPER-VOLT in fact for <70K€. Simple. No question to have 2 x cars, I only have one carpark in Paris. I'm on a beloved BMW 530DA today, that I need to replace within <2Years. If no beloved Germans brands bring such a product I'll move to whoever will bring one timely and has a decent repair centers network in Europe.
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Dec 6, 2010