The real question is this: Are you programming a language or are you programming a solution? Having been a classically train (CS) programmer with years of experience in C/C++/Motif and Visual C++, PHP is a pure joy. I don't have to futz around for hours just get a damn app to compile. I write, I test, I deploy. Done. Maybe it's that real programmers WANT to design garbage collectors and really grasp why you shouldn't pass a CHAR* to STRING to a WCHAR_T... Not me. I want to do this: "print($mydata);" and have it just f'en work. -CF