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San Diego
Electric Car Insider Magazine
Interests: electric cars, electric motorcycles, electric bikes, electric vehicles
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I get your exasperation, DaveD. Harvey loves to spec out cars just over the horizon, available someday, just not today. He needs 500 mile range with 5 minute recharge because after driving for 7 hours, he wants to get on the road and drive another 7 hours. That's his requirement, and he's stickin' to it. Until some automaker hits that spec for $30k and then by gum, he's gonna need 10 hours of driving and a two minute recharge time. I'll grant that Harvey does have some special requirements to meet, like not freezing to death if you get stuck on the side of the road for 30 minutes. Or the charge coupler not freezing in the socket if you leave your car plugged in for longer than it takes a cup of steaming hot coffee to turn into iced coffee while you're still drinking it. I once almost froze to death just crossing the street in Toronto in December. Those are hardy people up there I'll tell ya. My hosts laughed at my flimsy Southern California ski jacket and lent me a proper coat so I didn't take a place among the marble statuary. I hear you Harvey. It gets cold up there in the great white north. You need some headroom on your batteries. Somebody will deliver it someday, and maybe the "About" page will come with credits (and royalties no doubt) to Rice University.
Seems like a very well appointed, capable SUV for an excellent price. This will be a a must-have vehicle for the Electric Car Guest Drive. 120v aux power is an especially interesting capability as a factory option. Bravo Mitsubishi!
California limits rebate to single people who earn under $150k/yr. California increases the rebate to $4,500 for low income people who would not qualify for Fed Tax credit. When you say "We can and should do much better," what state are you writing from, SJC?
SJC, as the article says, these are rebates, not tax credits.
SJC: The “California Clean Air Initiative,” will ... provide rebates to help low- and middle-income families purchase new and used zero-emission vehicles...
Harvey, where are you getting the notion that California will have anything close to 400 H2 stations by 2020 "or so" Current projection is less than 100 by 2024: "Even with reduced vehicle projections, local and network-wide hydrogen fueling capacity are still expected to become a cause for concern around 2021 under business-as-usual station network growth assumptions. Additionally, the revised projection for network growth anticipates 94 stations by the end of 2023, if the State were to proceed at the current pace with the current station capabilities. The 100 stations referenced in AB 8 would be funded by this time, with some stations remaining in development at least through the bill’s expiration date of January 1, 2024."
Never pass up an opportunity for personal attacks, Davemart, it builds your brand. Apparently pointing out that there are four hydrogen fuel cell vehicles on the market, with possibly a few more coming within the next five years, and thirty-odd battery-electric and plug-in hybrids currently available with several dozen more slated for production within the next five years is enough to send you onto a frenzy. Got some money riding on this compressed gas technology? Send me the name of your local pub and I'll buy you a pint so you can properly console yourself.
Very impressive technology demonstration, and kudos to the engineers and developers (and sponsors) because this approach does point in the right direction of solving some of the basic, intractable problems with hydrogen; the cost of distribution. But sadly, the volume of this system would not keep very many FCVs in the road for long. 40 Nm³ Per hour is only 29 kg/hr at 1.01 bar : 14.69 PSI Modern FCVs want 700 bar : 10,000 PSI in the tank. 1 kg at 700bar ~ 60 miles 0.04 kg/hr of hydrogen will not get you very far on your daily commute, about 4 km = 2.5 miles.
An indication of which new drivetrain technologies will be available within the next few years is the plethora of announcements from automakers. There is a wave of commitments to electrify the entire product line, most recently from Volkswagen. For FCVs, not so much.
Impressive validation of Solid Power technology, and good news for the prospects of scale manufacturing. Kudos to both partners.
Bravo, Harvey, for impressive personal efficiency. I have LEDs but probably cancel out the energy savings with rather gluttonous use of computers around here.
I believe you are correct, mahonj, most people won't see 12,000 miles on 2,800 kWh, but on the MyNissanLeaf forum, there are a lot of people claiming ~ 240 watts/mile so maybe thwre are a lot of Leaf hypermilers out there (or people are self-limiting to ~9,300 miles year). With the new ultra-efficient Gen 2 cars coming out (Hyundai Ioniq BEV is 136mpge according to those DOE numbers could easily be achieved.
Yes, I am routinely amazed myself at how cheap these cars are in California. No doubt automakers are trying to get ahead of the 2018 ZEV mandate increase and in some cases, the release of longer range cars. Nissan Leaf is famous for $10k discount, and was recently joined by the BMW i3 at $10k discount (this is in addition to $10k combined State & Federal incentives). Brand new BMW i3 for $26k is a sweet deal. Knock another $1k off if you're a teacher or first responder in San Diego courtesy of SDG&E. $3k off in San Joaquin Valley if you breathe air, courtesy of the AQMD. Things are moving so fast in the state we added a full time staffer who does nothing but check prices 8 hours/day. PM me if you live in the state and are interested in seeing some more examples of what EVs and PHEVs are going for these days.
A welcome addition to the ~50 mile all electric range plug-in hybrid line-up. It will be interesting to see the MSRP and lease offers. Priced well, it could bring a lot of people onto the Honda showrooms. The Chevy Volt is already at $189/mo at some dealers in Los Angeles. Although classified as a Compact, I would not be surprised to see many people cross-shopping the two. The Hyundai Sonata is probably a closer rival but offers only 27 mile all-electric range. Leases seen as low as $180 mo. Similar Kia Optima offers 29 all-electric miles. Will be fascinating to see how the market values an extra ~20 miles of electric range.
Müller: "We have got the message and we will deliver." Well, that is welcome news. I do not fear for Tesla's fortunes, with their significant lead and culture of innovation and doing the right thing, (i.e. Supercharger) but the EV laggards are going to have a very deep hole to dig out of soon.
Investing in buggy whip production. Clean coal is a myth, and coal CCS is devastatingly uneconomical. Utilities around the country are shuttering coal fired power plants.
I'll take that as a retraction on the SUVs and pick-up trucks. Still no answer on who is selling 400kg/ day retail dispensing stations for close to $1m. Why not just admit that you made that one up too, Harv? I see "could be" and "should be" but no "is". But driver's need fuel, not wishes and promises, to get to work. My local electric utility delivers real fuel at an affordable cost today.
Harvey, are you suggesting that it will be stored in something other than gaseous form? I'd love to see the magic that would allow an SUV to carry 10x the tanks of a Mirai. You didn't mention who was producing a 400 kg/day hydrogen fueling station for close to $1m. More magic?
Excellent. Who is selling 400kg/ day filling stations for $1m installed and ready for business?
A hydrogen station capable of dispensing 300 kg/day at a 70% utilization factor costs about $3,000,000. What do you suppose the margin needs to be per kilogram to keep the payback period to 5 years, including financing on the capex?
Character attacks do nothing to persuade anyone of the viability of hydrogen as a transportation fuel source, Davemart. They won't dissuade me from posting my comments and viewpoint along with everyone else, either. If hydrogen developers can manage to reduce the price of vehicles, fuel distribution, dispensing and fuel to levels competitive with electricity, they'll have a market. If they can't, it will be just another technological cul-de-sac and the cars will get scrapped before the end of their service life because the fueling infrastructure will get dismantled just like it did a decade and a half ago. 45k FCVs is not enough to bring the retail cost of H2 down to $3.50/kg, according to DOE studies.
Harvey: "FCEVs fast growing fleet" Manufacturer own estimates from original post indicate less than 45k FCVs by 2022, five years from now. Porsche has announced 800v charging that will provide a 15 minute charge time. And of course, for most people, overnight charging at 2kW, about 6 miles per hour of charge, will satisfy all in-town travel requirements. In five years there will be at least 5 million EVs on the road in the US. By that time, solar and overnight time of use rates will make EV fuel about $0.05 per kW, 1.5 cents per mile, equiv to about $0.37 per gallon gas. That is going to be a really hard act to follow.
Whether or not "H2 is no problem" may be evident by the lack of H2 refueling stations for trucks widely deployed throughout the cargo transportation corridors. It may be no problem in theory, but in reality, the infrastructure does not exist and H2 trucks won't be sold until the infrastructure in in place. Nicola has a plan for that and I wish them the best. But their job is much harder as a startup to have to raise money for both infrastructure and vehicles, and the engineer and sell both. I hope they do it. But in the meantime, the rest of the alt fuel industry is lining up behind CNG, with the exception of Tesla and the short haul drayage players.
If you're talking about H2 fuel cells, SJC, they can be used everywhere adequate refueling infrastructure exists. When you go to ACT Expo and other clean-fuel trade shows, the truck booths are all about CNG though, not hydrogen. I wish Nicola and Toyota the best with their H2 trucks. But the infrastructure has to be in place before they make sales.
RoUSA not an accurate assessment, Harvey. Thirteen states and the District of Columbia have adopted California's stricter emissions standards. Nine also participate in the zero-emission vehicle mandate. The 13 states: Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington. Together, these represent 28% of new vehicle sales in US. Other states are not so easy to pigeonhole, either. For example, Arizona adopted California's ZEV standards in 2008, but repealed them when Jan Brewer became Governor in January 2012. If all US states had adopted CA ZEV regs, we would probably have 2.4 million BEVs on US roads. If we quadrupled the FCVs, we'd still have less than 4,000 in the US fleet, and only 112 H2 stations.