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Patrick Free
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They are loosing everybody here.... So far we were expecting not to exceed 400Amps in order not to heat the cables beyond a level that could be easily cooled, and requiring too much thickness... Or even stay not much above 300A to allow to keep up with air cooling and lighter cables that human can manipulate. I was expecting CCS to go up to 1000V or even 1200V, per recent standardisation claims linked to HPC350, allowing Porsche 350kW to happen with even air cooling on the cables if they whish and accept to forget their 800V initial claim, ... to improve it (Re-lay of the battery required if they increase the voltage... Feasable only if planned properly for it). I don't see the point of trying to get to 450KW now on one DC channel, and do that with a 500Amps approach and only 900Volts. That does not seam optimal. Only justification may be to remain closer to the 800 Volts announced by Porsche for Mission E initially, so they may not need to re-layout the battery pack for more voltage. The Tesla Truck announcement with its MegaCharger port offering 4 x 2 high current DC pins clearly shows that next Tesla step will be "MODULARITY", means they will offer may be up to 1600kW but split accross up to 4 x 400kW, in 4 pairs of pins, the Long range 500Miles and 800kWh up to 1000kWh battery using the 4 pairs in one go to recharge 400Miles in 30mn. The next Gen cars being able to take only one pair or 2 pairs and recharge at up to 400kW or 800kW that way on the same Megacharger plugs. If they want a human Trucker to be able to manipulate the huge cable including the 4 x pairs of cables, they will need to be air cooled, hence not exceed 300-350 Amps per pair of cables. So bet tesla may go for up to 1200V ... If thy follow that path. Then if robotic arms are used it could be a different story of course. Wait and see more details on Tesla Megachargers. But this 450kW with 900V and 500Amps approach makes no sense for me at this stage. It will only confuse German partners who may just stop rolling any hypercharger fore they make up their mind... Good for Tesla again.
I look forwards to see the 1st one at least HPC150 level, as no car can use HPC350 today, and find a way to charge my Tesla Model X 100D there... Yet in Europe Tesla is not offering the Required CCS-Combo cable compatible with HPC150... Only a Type 2 (Non-Combo Minnekes, hence AC only and very limited Power as a result !!!). SoI look forward for more here !
That looks like the perfect battery for the EV of tomorrow with >350KW Ultra-Chargers, allowing 200KWH packs in less space than 100KWH today and almost the same weight...where is the trick ? Is the price prohibitive ? Why Tesla did not pick them if that perfect for EVs ?
Interesting, but as always with these very partial disclosures the devil is in the details... 300KWH battery giving 350km range may be Ok if it allows "supercharger" speed charging. If we take same 1.2C use by Tesla on their current best in class 100KWH EVs, allowing them to charge at up to 120KW, when SOC allows it. This would allow 360KW charges, very much same as what Porsche claims for its Mission E 800V future EVs at 350KW... Will that be an option here too ? Or will they go even further with 600KW chargers already presented in other heavy duty electric vehicles for ultra fast charging ?
Heavy vehicles / Bus charging.... at only 50KW up to 150KW, means nothing more than what's already available for much smaller Tesla long range EV cars ???? That does not sound right. So far the pilots for Electric Buses and lorries were arround # 600KW charging power. Which makes sense assuming >500KWH of batteries in such very big vehicles... This sounds like something cut short for may be fastly wearing batteries uncapable to charge at same " 1.2C rate as Tesla batteries...or what ?
Great public initiative again,.... But not sure why this 400Amp limitation to the creativity of the humans ? I understand serious cooling issues as the Amps increase, as well as cables requirements, and their impact on practicallity of charging for average humans manipulating the plugs. Understand that with usual cables, above 300A you need Liquid Cooling, not mentionning the section and the weight of the cables that are required and the plugs attached. Then 400A may be already kind of a challenge even with great liquid cooling... But why limit the creativity that way ? Every challenge can open the door to new breakthroughs.... When searchers look outside the box, why don't let them think about charging at up to 1000KW, battery and chargers, without boundaries ? Either way it comes and can be made safe, it should be acceptable. Understand that increasing the Voltage forever is not without safety challenges either.... Could searchers find better ways to move current than via copper wires + cooling of these wires ? No liquid, no plasma, no new things...could do better than wires ? Then you can have an automat move the cables and plugs instead of humans, which could then allow more weight and heat and many things, especially as you think at next step Autonomous cars charging. Not sure why limits are set up-front on one characteristic like Amps here. Seams they want to fund something already found by a US vendor, and not the other options that could compete with that.... For me they should better define the starting point as where Tesla is today (145KW chargers, and 120KW maxi effective charge at optimal SOC on Tesla best 100KWH 1.2C batteries, with 8 years unlimited Miles battery warranty) and then define the next challenging ultra fast charging standard expected, define safety standards in an open way (No possibility of manipulating humans enjuries, no explosions)) say 1000KW, then put the money and let creativity come out with multiple options and benchmark them on real cases.
500 AMPs....That is a lot !!! So far Porsche was teasing 350KW at 800V, headding to 437.5 AMPs that was already a great challenge for cable cooling... In the CCS standard they were pushing to 1000V that could have made 350KW with only 350 Amps that was even easier to cool. 500 Amps I had never heared about it... May be a peak statement or .... ?
Why do they need to wrap this with so many mysteries, generating so much frustration ? Porsche started by communicating on 800V Superchargers that could charge to 80% #92KWH Mission E batteries in <15mn, without giving details of the POWER of these chargers, nor the Amps so we can calculate the power.... Then they got the CCS standard extended and we figured out that this would mean up to 350KW DC SuperChargers, despite rest of VW group seams to favor a 150KW interim standard, that may be 400V or 800V, not sure. Still nobody has seen any Mission E prototype connected to that level of 350KW Supercharging power so we can see during how much time it does actually charge one car battery at real 350KW. Nor did they give any indication on the warranty of Mission E batteries, compared to Tesla current 8 Years with unlimited millage on Models S & X, for battery and drive train / electric motors. Nothing is impossible in that space but everything will mean trades off, and this lack of clarity seams that they have something bad to hide...Like if you actually charge any one car at 350KW its battery warranty may fall to 1 or 2 years only ? There is a trick here for sure, as they have yet no special battery techno that could support frequent up to 4C charge rates without wearing very fastly.
Still their quote is confusing "...a severe production shortfall of 100 kWh battery packs, which are made using new technologies on new production lines."... For me their Model S & X 100KWH battery packs are made in Tesla factories using Panasonic-Japan made original 18650 battery cells, and not yet their new tech 2170 cells to be manufactured in collaboration with Panasonic at Tesla Gigafactory-1 in Nevada. Elon came back and forth on this, 1st tweeting that all newly produced Tesla cars, including current Models S & X, would use the new 2170 cells only by year end 2017...Then he came back shortly after, saying there were no plans to use 2170 cells in current Model S & X (for now), which generated many interpretations on the Net. The cooling system, and the internal arrangement of the cells in the 100KWH packs are different from the lower size packs, but the cells - that are the main "Technology" in them - are expected same as before and not new tech.... This seams to mean they had a problem with the new cooling and organisation of the cells in 100KWH packs... Which would be very bad news.... Although it seams resolved now they restarted to ship them.
This will get revisited as batteries can accept more cycles. If the recent information that Tesla new 2170 cells, used in Model 3 and PowerWall2 and by year end in all other Model S & X cars too, can really support 2X more cycles than previous 18165 cells, thanks to Canadian led enhancements on electrolyte dopants plus coating, then we should see more openings for V2G. The fact that Tesla just allowed "Aggregation" for its Powerwall2, that is Residencial Battery-to-Grid feeding, controlled by the Grid, gives an indication that we may not be that far away to V2G on Tesla side at least. Just missing in my view is that all new Tesla cars announced with 21700 cells and this type of capabilities to get a reduced battery warranty compared to today Model S & X 8Y unlimited milleage battery warranty... May be reduced to 5Y unlimited or 100K Miles only.... Then my bet is they will open V2G for these models only.
Why will it NOT support the Porsche sponsored 800V 350KW ultra fast charging and will be limited to 150KW instead ? Why can't all VW Group adopt just one ultra-fast recharge standard ?
Superb ! Just I don't understand why it won't be enabled for Porsche best of breed 800V/350KW hyper fast charger ? Why not standardize all VW group on that best in class level so far ? Does not make sense to be limited at 150KW for such a great car !
35.8KWH is a great and far better number for sure... But with no Range Extender and no SuperFast / SuperCharger charging capability this car will remain limited to local commutes, and remain a very expensive option versus the small ICE cars that today dominate that market. Will Need to add >100KW Superfast charging capability (if not full Porsche 800V 350KW !), to start beat into the all purposes car replacement market where that level of pricing is more affordable in my view. Unless I missed something here...
This was a critical step to credibilize the German Car makers fight-back vs Tesla in the Long Range all-purposes EV space. Till they set a comparable or better SuperChargers network across Europe, no European would consider them as an alternative to Tesla. 400 location sites (hope with several plugs in each) is a decent number, but they need to put that on a map with committed dates on when it will be available, and explain how this will connect to the local Grid to really deliver up to 350KW of power safely, and which car could take any benefit of this level of power, available when... But this is a HUGE step forwards for sure.
50KW Fast Charging limit is a Deal Braker here. Sorry guys this will not work for an all purpose full EV sold at the expected price for a Jaguar SUV....
1000 cycles not acceptable in my view. With one charge per day, would make the battery last less then 3 years, versus >10Y expected by EV buyers. No way to have anything <3300 cycles in my car....
@FOERSOM : Are you Kidding a >2 Tons Panamera driven by a 100KW Electric motor in full EV mode.... Would be funny that Porsche publishes their 0 to 60M time in that mode. I guess 20 seconds ... at least. Means the little Renault will do a lot better than this > 100K€ Porsche, ending > €150K with usual Options incl VAT, at every red light stop ???? When the Tesla P100D will run 0 to 60M in 2.5s... Sorry this is NOT the Porsche way. This is only another non-sense Electric Turbo announced to kid stupid EU regulations. I put a deposit this summer on a Tesla Model X P100D, that costs a little more even after adding all required options here, I admit. But I Finished waiting for my beloved German Brands to wake up on real EVs for men. Sorry guys.
Seams with this new 33KWH Battery pack that BMW is getting a little more serious, at least on the i3 formfactor. Combined with its REX option that should make a great PHEV for people interested in that small and ugly formfactor. Now we need BMW to offer such 33KWH capacity, with Dual electric Motors totalling >200KW, in a real BMW car formfactor, say an X6/X5/X4/X3 in priority. Problem is to do this right and in a profitable way that could last for a while, they need to come out with a comparable "all electric" Drive train for their real Cars & SUVs, as they have made for the tiny i3, with a comparable non-Tracting Range extender trading less Range Anxiety with the REX against less all EV range and huge savings on battery costs, to get to comparable or lower prices as Tesla with a good PHEV... i3 will not cover that.
Another German version of non-sense "Electric turbo" design, invented by Porsche last year in 1st eHybrid model, with no decent all electric mode for this type of car heavy sporty car (136HP only, and 14KWH battery !). So in real life it's never used as full electric, ICE is always on, electric part used as extra turbo in mixed mode. Hence no real petrol savings occurs, only kidding with the EU regulations.... And opening a boulevard for TESLA with P100D Full EV backed by Tesla world-class Superchargers Network covering all Western Europe now.
All Bla Bla. Not one meaningful number committed here in terms of WH/KG & WH/L and number of life cycles for this supposed to be revolutionary Cell. How can this make a news today ?
I'm a Tesla stock holder of modest 250 shares bought at $185 each with hardly earn personal money at the beginning of this year, waiting for them to double in value to purchase my long waited Model X P100D ... when it finally comes out, hopefully later this year, funding it by 1/3 with the plus-value on these Tesla shares, if my plan works.... And despite the negative reaction of Wall street since yesterday, I think this merge makes extreme sense to both companies on the long term. Note that on the short term it may look better for the SolarCity stock holders, because of premium offered, but also because the huge expansion of solar and renewables supply connected to the Grid, that yet cant store much energy, has had as a consequence in many places, to push down the KWH electricity prices at low consumption hours, during the day when the sun shines but demand is low, down to zero or even negative values during some short periods of time in Germany recently, expanding to Western Europe via European Grids interconnection. Same in Latin America, especially Chili. And this is meant to expand in the future years as more renewable sources w/o appropriate storage get connected to the Grid. But for me this is only short term and due to the absence of energy storage in the grid. Overtime, as more storage will be available at several levels including the grid itself, and/or more EVs will be charged at work, on Supercharge on the road, during the day, providing some of that missing storage / extra consumption during the day, the real cost of energy will get smoothened through the day and the night, while at the time the sun shines the main customers of Solar energy and best energy storer will become the EVs charging at work place, or on the road charging at Tesla Superchargers... So a lot of value can be retained from that partnership by Tesla too, overtime. Tesla accessing potentially cheaper and cheaper energy source for their Superchargers, whose future costs are planned for many years hence not subject to electricity market spikes. SolarCity getting a captive "in-phase" long term key customer that will most need energy during the day, as people travel best during daylight hours, means when they roof produce power... So they could fully leverage their solar pannels investments with far less Storage capacity than other Solar power vendors will need, as they will access that secured Tesla Superchargers demand. Great move Elon again !!!! I listen to the Pure-Player EV + Battery being diluted with Solar but this is building tomorrow world and bet it will be different so worth taking some risks, but the don't buy the Analysts comments about SolarCity debt. This is presented as that debt was not connected to secured future Revenues. For me the long term contracts with roof owners secure that debt for a part, plus now the merge with Tesla will secure a certain price for the electricity produced a low consumption hours, so good on the long term to both parties. Hence this should not be seen as a dangerous debt but as a secured investment in my view. Then comments on the cash consumption are valid and need to be adressed with more profitable revenue covering their expenses on both sides.
Drawings are interesting, playing mee too with Tesla, but why not since this is the best design so far. Just hope they will come with electric motors at same level as Tesla and not their ridiculous 65KW models presented for their PHEVs, and they will come with a Story on Superchargers Network for Europe, available with the car, since a long range EV w/o Superchargers will be pointless. May be their historical Alliance with Tesla could open them Tesla Superchargers doors ?
Calling new a 65KW electric motor ... and a 13.5KWH Battery ... This is just ridiculous. Are they KIDDING ???? Let's wait for their all electric design at Paris Motor Show this fall. I just hope they will have worked a bit since that.... If they are serious.
Interesting for a French experiment... I personally live in Paris/France and found interesting the Autolib EV-sharing experience still working fine here, although I never subscribed myself. I'm looking at car sharing as an interesting innovation, capable to solve many issues in large congested cities ... and create few new others too, but interesting. Too bad they don't explain here, what charging standard was used in Grenoble. I fully understand the chargers hierarchy that will durably keep a purpose for all types down to the smallest 4KW chargers, for the home and the work space where we typically stay connected 7-8h every day during the week and more at home in the week-end, and only need to recharge every night the 10-15KWH you consume every day, whatever is the size of your battery. But as Autolib captured many former parking slots in Paris open air places, I would have exected that they use Far Chargers there, say 22 to 50KW, so they don't need to stick EVs during many hours per day to recharge them at <4KW un-effectively and they can offer a far better rotation for same space and number of EVs.
800 – 1,000 Wh/L, and 325 – 400 Wh/kg, means Next step TESLA 100KWH pack with this techno could weight down to 250KG and at best only use 100L space... Whaooo ! This is serious, even if from Cell level to full battery pack level there may be a significant adder (May be +30% ?), this would still be a Huge progress.. Then one needs to know if that will wear faster or slower than other technos (How many cycles before loosing 20% capacity ?), and if it can sustain 135KW SuperChargers or more tomorrow... And the costs... But for sure a serious thing.