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soltesza
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@Roger If they have about the same qualities (range, power, price), I would rather have this "salt-water" flow battery in may car than an H2 FC stack. H2 is a fairly dangerous material. It is enough to have an H2 leak once or twice the lifetime of the FC car to invite catastrophe to your life. I would have to see VERY STRONG assurances regarding H2 handling before I let an FC car near my garage. @everyone This flow battery however, would be great for stationary energy storage for large amounts of renewable energy.
@SJC Oh, common, you don't say anything about the reasoning in the NRC decision. Likely, the NRC didn't find the proposed mode of operation sufficiently safe so they told Edison to fix the plant properly or stop operating. You cannot operate nuclear plants with hacks and duct-tape fixes. That just doesn't fly in this part of the world (for which we can be thankful). Since Edison finds the costs of repairs for proper operation too expensive, they have stopped operations. The reason for their stop is still purely economic.
@Bob Great points. @Davemart and other nuclear proponents You massively over-exaggerate the cost and technical challenges of integrating wind and solar into current grids. Grid operators need to manage huge unplanned disruptions in any case and distributed, smaller plants are much smaller of a problem for them, than huge, gigawatt-sized fossil/nuclear plants. Research of the current grid and advanced modelling has already proven that renewable generation which is geographically dispersed has a low variability even if the individual generating plants are highly intermittent. The EU already has huge interconnects between its countries and it is continuously being upgraded. This will probably happen in the US in sync with renewable investment. This and the coming of cheap grid-scale storage will eliminate any resistance at generators against renewables and as a result, fossil/nuclear investment will practically stop. Some of the next-gen grid-storage solutions are already in the commercialization phase (EOS, GE Durathon) you sound silly when you refer to them as fairy-tales. Heck, GE already sells wind turbines with integrated storage (built-in Durathon batteries in the turbine tower).
27Kwh/liter for the third chemistry? That is definitely worth exploring. My second-gen Prius has a ~45 liter tank. Even if we take a more practical (say 15kwh/liter) real-life capacity, that would give a 675 kwh battery. With the electric consumption of the Prius (150 Wh/km) this would result in a 4500 km range. Now, that would be a car that crushes all of the petrol-based competition.
These numbers are very good for a system which may be put into a flow-battery configuration. If flow-through cells can be designed, this may be the ideal stationary/grid battery. It seems to have very good cycling ability, scales well and very high round-trip efficiency. In a flow configuration, this could scale to MWh systems easily.
@HarveyD The 30%+ solar panels are very expensive and normally used in concentrating systems which don't lend themselves for automotive use.
$40/kw would be an extremely good price for a fuel cell stack that is capable of operating for so long. A 10KW home unit would only cost $400. A CHP unit could be built around it cost-effectively and that would push its efficiency up to 80-90% (I assume that it is 50% efficient only for electricity generation and the rest is medium-grade heat which is easy to use up in the form of domestic hot water). Probably, they would be best paired with a heat-pump (in winter you may need much more heat than electricity) but simple electric heating may also be a choice (cheap). A CHP unit like that could make a home completely power-independent if a large-enough hydrogen storage tank (say 2-3 m3) is installed with it and there is on-site renewable generating capacity. Possibly, those in-development artificial leafs could produce hydrogen on-site so a hydrogen network build-out may not even be necessary. (not sure if the 2-3 m3 storage would be enough for seasonal shifting but some high-density H2 storage may be developed specifically for this)
@ai_vin Good catch, I was wondering about that too. It is worth to know that there is a huge number of biomethane plants already deployed in Germany (typically smaller sizes at farms). If this can make them more efficient with leftover renewable energy, at a small-enough price, this could be something worthwile. The 20g/km CO2 figure is nice but we would need to know about the price of the bio-methane they are selling.
I am wondering if it is possible to design a custom wind plant around a facility like this. Potentially, the costs may be significantly lower since the plant doesn't have to produce for the grid.
Would be nice to know about the efficiency of the process and the price of the natural gas they produce. If the fuel price is competitive with fossil methane prices this should be a very-very good development since a lot of homes may switch to renewable methane.
This will work great as long as they can get wind-power virtually free. I am not sure what they will do with these units when modern and cost-effective grid-storage equipment becomes available. Since current P2G seemingly has horrible efficiency (starting with water splitting at 20-30% efficiency), a 75-85% grid-battery (Durathon, EOS) will beat this in efficiency many times over.
Finally, the first next-gen li-ion anode material has reached the market. I hope we will hear about the countless other breakthrough materials we have read about in the recent years.
Sounds extremely promising. Is there any info about the roundtrip efficiency? Flow batteries are usually very weak in that area (60%-70% roundtrip eff) Also, this design seems easy to maintain after the 2000 cycles are gone (replacing the flow-through cell and possibly the electrolyte).
Experts say that to stop climate change at 2C rise, 2/3 of the current reserves must stay in the ground. The Saudis don't seem to care about this too much. In the worst case, in 10-20 years these refineries will have to be bombed to shut down (I just don't think the Saudis will shut them down willingly).
@Davemart Oh common, let HarveyD keep up the morale.
Even the 79% efficiency is pretty good for 50C, flow batteries manage ~70-80% at 5C. What about self-discharge? Is this viable for longer-term storage like with the flow batteries? Would be nice to see some cost calculations to tell if this is really a breakthrough but it does look very good on paper. If there is no degradation at all for 1000 cycles, this may mean that the battery can serve 10-20K cycles or even more. This may make the real-life LCOE of renewable energy sources very competitive since it eliminates (finally) the variability factors.
Would be nice to see the capacity at 100, 500 and 1000 cycles.
@jayson Your "economist" thinking is beyond repair. Your statements are problematic in so many ways that its is hard even to start correcting them. Wind is more expensive than nuclear? Really? What a surprise. I suppose your "economist" calculations include all hidden or externalized costs like decomissioning nuclear power plants? Eh, never mind!
Sorry guys, but as far as I understand, this is not even similar to the thing EESTOR is/was developing. They never had to do anything with lithium particles. They claimed to have found a solution for an extremely energy dense capacitor by allegedly finding material which avoids voltage breakdown at extreme energy capacities/voltage.
The article doesn't say anything about how they get the CO2 for their process? Although, their process seems revolutionary, the source of CO2 is the catch here (just like with algae-growth) Do they need a coal-fired power plant to feed them CO2? In this case, their solution is nice but it is only an advanced form of carbon-capture (and reuse). Can they suck CO2 out of the air? If their process can be viably combined with a solar-powered suction system, then I would call this revolutionary.
@Nick Possibly, the service stations will have huge capacitors and high-amp connections to the grid. Stations with sparsely populated areas (highway stations) may also have a solar-wind dual power station for themselves (e.g: a 5 MW single-wind tower with a similar-wattage solar part), so they can fill the average number of stopping cars without drawing huge amps from the grid.
The charging power in flow batteries is usually proportionate with the number of "fuel cells" you put in the system (in relation with the amount of the electrolyte). For example, you can create a system which has a huge amount of electrolyte storage but only a few charge/discharge cells. In this case you will still have huge electric storage capacity but only limited charge/discharge power. If you add cells to the system you raise the power of the system. I hope this will be more successful than Vanadium-redox batteries (VRB) because those have been around for 10 years but haven't become successful. (They are still very expensive and no big player seems to have the capability to lower those prices by mass production). Would be nice to see some more quantitative data. VRB has about 60-70% roundtrip efficiency. This lithium based system may reach 90% if the energy density is really so much bigger in the active material.
This may be an important consideration: If methanation is used in conjunction to wind farms (instead of the wind farms producing for the electric grid) then wind capacity factor may soar up and simultaneously reduce its production price. Methanation may be done at the wind-farm so electric grid connection is not necessary at all (an important factor for project siting, currently). If CO2 production from the atmosphere could be made cost effective, CNG use would explode.
I wouldn't write this off as a complete nonsense. Methanating energy is not a new idea, only its known processes are not very efficient yet, so it is expensive. In this process, almost everything depends on the price of the electricity they use for electrolysis. If they can get electricity dirt-cheap (excess wind can be bough for NEGATIVE payments at some places, see the recent CleanTechnica article), this may even prove financially viable, especially if the German government supports it. And why wouldn't it? If it really provides a way for a 60% CO2 emission reduction compared to the Prius (~100g/km), then why not? By the way, recently, a lot of articles have reported breakthroughs about producing H2 from solar energy using cheap catalysts. This may replace the hydrolysis process element in the medium term and make methanation MUCH MORE efficient/cheap. About storage: Here in Hungary energy companies have built HUGE storage facilities (enough for 6 months for the whole country) in response to the two recent Ukrainian-Russan CNG dispute (CNG import lines were cut off for months). We can store extreme amounts of CNG so a system like this may be absolutely feasible if other parts of the process are financially viable. (Also there are quite a lot of CNG vehicles on Hungarian roads because it is still much cheaper than gas/diesel). Gas is $8,15/us gallon here. Diesel is almost the same.
I have a Toyota Prius and I like it very much. However, I WILL NOT buy a car which has anything to do with MICROSOFT. Not necessarily because it is bad quality (although MS software is not very reliable according to my experience) but because I won't tolerate the business behaviour of such firms. If you care about progress and free competition, just refrain from MS software as much as you can.