In what way is this a tram? It is no more/no less than an electric bendy bus.

@EP Why can't OCGTs burn biomethane from anaerobic digestion?

@HarveyD Where did you get those emissions intensity figures from? They look suspect. The UK figure, for instance, is double the reality of last 12 months: https://www.mygridgb.co.uk/last-12-months/ We've not had north of 500g/kWh (annualised) for 5 years.

There is a distinction between the cell and integrated battery module performance figures. As one would expect, the latter is lower Wh/kg.

@EP Well, referring back to my earlier post - me. This is a 'standard replacement during after sales operations' i.e. lease contracts. So would I have an old (25% lost capacity) 22kWh pack replaced by a (5% lost capacity) 40kWh pack. Darn tootin! I mean, why wouldn't you?

@BigT when you say 'add drive to cars', do you mean to individual carriages? This has been standard for DMUs (Diesel Multiple Units) from the late '60s at least and there is no dedicated drive unit / locomotive engine on such trains. I'd really love them to get this on my route. The old DMUs on my line belch it out in stations. And for the sections with a third rail, they could use a pickup shoe to avoid the diesel altogether.

@EP 63GW of generating capacity built across a country over 3 decades vs 3 local storage installation. I'm not sure the point of such an apples and oranges comparison. As a tentative start, it does go someway to addressing a perennial problem France has with a relatively inflexible generation system. EDF has protracted periods where they dump excess capacity for a pittance, then have to import to service high demand at top dollar. You can clearly see it on the UK -France interconnector patterns at GridWatch. Maths is your friend on used batteries: 60MWh = 40kWh car pack x 0.75 of original capacity x 2000 cars In Europe, Renault sold 30k ZOEs in 2017, enough for 15 of these facilities a year at current sales rates but sales are on something of an upward trajectory. BTW Renault leases batteries so the desire of owners to buy slightly used batteries is not relevant. I'd happily take a slightly used 40kWh pack to replace the old 22kWh pack of my ZOE.

To cover days - weeks of reduced production batteries don't work as you have to linearly increase your capital costs. Anaerobic digestion plat producing (cleaned) biomethane and/or power to gas plant have a one-off capital cost but can be run over time generating more gas for the existing natural gas infrastructure. Unlike batteries these don't fill up. Whilst less efficient for storage than batteries, there is a cross over point at which bio/renewable methane production from excess renewable electricity / AD is more economic than adding more and more battery capacity which gets underutilised.

But they did not write the papers. You did check them out, right?

Protean has a whole slue of white papers about the 'unsprung mass' concerns and their packaging approach. https://www.proteanelectric.com/our-thinking/ Bit proud as they are based out of my current home town and I've chatted to them at local EV events. They were well cheesed off to loose out on the drive train contract for the new London black cabs so hope this pans out for them.

sd I don't know why they are quoting NEDC as Europe has moved to the Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure (WLTP) last year. See http://wltpfacts.eu/from-nedc-to-wltp-change/

@mahonj Taking those points: a) a lot of the network is being already converted to polypropylene pipes anyway since 2002 through the Iron Mains Replacement Programme (IMRP) b) no point replacing (thermal) coal with hydrogen as the UK is phasing its use out anyway. Similarly for road transport with EVs. Servicing the fossil fuel needs of 23 million gas customers however is more of a stumbling block. c) the 5-10% tests have already been done through ITM's trials in Germany and the on-going trials of the Leeds Gateway H21 project (https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3022389/gbp9m-boost-for-pioneering-hydrogen-heating-project) are working on 100% hydrogen.

Hi EP, Yup. My 19 year old remembers us getting our glass milk bottles delivered. The switch to diesel van in the noughties was one of the reasons we stopped having our milk delivered. If this story pans out, I may go back to using the milkman.

Seriously? First of its kind? 30 years ago almost the whole UK fleet of milk floats was electric. At best, this is a back-to-the-future moment.

Harvey, in what way do you consider the Renault ZOE 40 to not qualify?

It will be interesting to see how the switch from the discredited NEDC to WLTP in Europe pans out over the next 2 years of phase in. We have several car models to bench mark the new figures against (and WRT EPA). https://www.contracthireandleasing.com/car-leasing-news/wltp-replaces-nedc-september-2017/

Whilst this is to be applauded from dust and replacement perspectives, how big an issue is brake dust and wear as we shift to cars where electromagnetic (contactless, regenerative) braking dominates?

Natural gas, by definition, is a fossil fuel (formed naturally by organic matter decomposition and diagenesis over millennia to millions of years). So 'RNG' is an oxymoron on human timescales. This is referring to the artificial generation of biomethane.

@Centurion Whilst the road to deployment of disruptive Li ion electrodes has been slow and tortuous, capacity from conventional Li technologies has provided stead (and sometimes remarkable) improvements. My 2013 ZOE has a 22kWh battery pack but it took under 4 years for a 41kWh replacement to be developed. The typical 100 mile range of 2010 is heading for >200 miles by 2020. And at lower cost.

On the other hand, none of our current weather is unaffected by climate change.

Obviously Dearman have a vested interest, nonetheless, they have pointed out a glaring loophole.

@Cheese Well 150kWh charge taking days is a bit of an exaggeration. It is actually 22 hours at 7kW (single phase).

@Dave If you are offered a domestic storage unit with a given capacity and at 30% cost reduction - what is not to like? (http://www.powervault.co.uk/article/powervault-and-renault-give-ev-batteries-a-second-life-in-smart-energy-deal/) And as mahonj points out, some people abhor waste and actively seek out re-usable and recycled goods.

@WillyNilly Asbestos is not used in brake pads anymore.

@gorr Yes indeed let's look at real life. Li battery costs per kWh have plummeted since 2010. Less than 4 years after launch, the Renault ZOE increased real world range form 100-180 miles whilst maintaining the battery form factor (an 80% increase in effective volumetric energy density) with older ZOEs now able to upgrade their range. The next 12 months will see a slew of mid-priced models offering 200+ mile range. As for 'dismal' sales, given this is effectively a new car segment (from 2010) with considerable production inertial to overcome, the rate of growth is actually impressive see http://www.ev-volumes.com/country/total-world-plug-in-vehicle-volumes/