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George Kaplan
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This is why I have become a BOO supporter. Not because I hate the idea of the EU. I used to be very pro-European and feel we have a lot we can learn from our continental partners. I objects because we have already gone much too far and suspect there is no 'half way out'. We have to leave.
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Totally agree. In the poll, when asked if a fully integrated Eurozone was in Britain's interests I said no. I said because looser cooperation will help the countries as will kicking the weaker ones of the single currency. All these efforts to stabilise the situation will fail and we will no longer be shackled to a corpse; we will be shackled to a rotting one! So all we need to do is get Cameron to agree to a referendum on EU membership and...oh wait, I see the flaw in my plan!
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Somehow I am sure UKIP and Monday's vote weren't the only factor in these LOCAL by-elections. And if any of the activists blame Monday's vote then they need to first ask what campaigning they did. UKIP have had a similar effect on our vote that Lib Dems have had on Labour. Whilst I would dearly love a referendum on Europe and to leave that job-destroying, expensive and undemocratic organisation, we need to stop whining and just get on with the task in hand. To pander to UKIP is a pointless exercise and those of do it need to take a good long look at what they are trying to achieve. There, rant over.
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Alternatively, Cameron could have put on a 3 line whip to vote in favour, told the Lib Dems it was in their manifesto and then won, looked strong and helped to sort out our economy that is so damaged by the EU.
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Tim, I agree with every word you said. As a loyal Party member, I wish I didn't. I wanted a referendum but excepted SOME of the arguments against it. But this has been a disaster for Cameron which he could so easily have avoided. His decision to put on a 3-line whip was monumentally stupid and will have caused lasting damage to his relationship with the Party and for those volunteers in the field trying to recruit and retain members. Next time a letter comes from CCHQ saying our membership is not what it should be, I think I shall write back and simply say 'EU vote, 3 line whip, whose fault is that?'.
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You have put so concisely at the arguments at which it took me years and much soul-searching to arrive.
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I have given some thought to what I would do if I were an MP. At times during Cameron and Hague's speech I found myself leaning towards supporting the government. But always in the back of mind was this thought: No way will the EU let us have any powers back. The argument that leaving EU and simply being members of EFTA would mean having no say in the laws of trade. But quite frankly I don't see what say we have at the moment. In an renegotiating does not seem to be a viable option. So, with regret, BOO.
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''a seat at the table at which the rules of that market are made, and we must make those rules work for us'' So how can you explain ideas such as a financial transaction tax that would cripple Britain's financial services industry to fund the EU? What good as the seat at the table done when law after law and rule after rule disadvantages us? ''We need the European Union to contribute to economic growth, not hold it back. '' But they are holding back growth! ''But we cannot ignore our trade figures - 50 per cent of that trade is with Europe. I visit countless small businesses whose livelihoods depend on exports to the continent''. You do realise that trade would continue if we left the EU right? Switzerland and Norway don't have a problem.
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To people who say that the EU is not a concern for the voters, you are only half right. It is true that the EU is far down their list of priorities. However, their top concerns are the economy and immigration. Our economy is weakened by the fact that we are sending billions, saved in tough cuts to Europe- effectively cancelling out the austerity measures. Our growth is weakened by endless, job-destroying red-tape and regulation from Brussels about which we can do nothing. Immigration has meant that millions of British people are priced out of work by Eastern Europeans who flock to this country and we cannot do a thing about it because they are coming from the EU. So what was that you were saying about the EU not being important to voters again?
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Please could you refer me to the polling that indicates 3/4 people in the UK want a referendum on subjects such as Indian independence, Irish Home Rule and Window Tax. Then please explain how given the amount of job destroying red tape and regulation comes out of Brussels, how much money (net) we send them and how little control we have over sky-rocketing immigration, how the EU does not affect us.
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So you consider which precise method we use to elect our rulers to be more important that what powers they have and what powers are held by people we do not elect? Oh dear.
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I think open primaries do have a place but they should be used at the members discretion rather than automatically. A primary, properly advertised in the local rag, put out on leaflets and given a bit of publicity could help attract a few new members in safe wards which are so key to membership. Don't get me wrong, I have been to a selection meeting in a safe ward where 50 out of 80 members showed up. Now in those situations, a primary is not necessary. But in the reverse situation where 15 out of 150 (no I'm not kidding) turn out, it shows how the branch need a shot in the arm. A primary would not solve that problem but would go some way towards it
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I hope DC hires you as an 'adviser' (no pun intended). Had he done that, the motion would be voted down by Lab and the lying Libs but at least we would come out looking good.
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Hear hear. I'm all for an independent Scotland as a proud Englishman.
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I am not denying that the Lisbon retreat cost us dearly, but you imply that were offered a referendum of the kind being discussed here which we were never promised.
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''Yes BUT- - -. In the lead up to the campaign We were repeatedly offered a "cast-iron" promise of a referendum'' Er, no we weren't. There was never a pledge for an in/out EU referendum. There was a (disgracefully broken) pledge to hold one on the EU Constitution but unfortunately, never one for an in/out.
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I would never go as far as voting UKIP, I think they are a bad joke of a Party, but I wish some of their sentiments crept in to us.
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You are obviously unaware that it is not necessary or customary for the PM to involve himself in a debate like this. He is scared of a rebellion and so he should be.
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Exactly, businesses are suffering from red tape and regulation, much of it from Brussels. We are putting far more in than we get out and as you say, our cuts have been eaten up by Brussels. It's the economy stupid and the EU is hurting the economy.
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Although I want to leave the EU, there was no such promise in our Manifesto. And the phrase 'cast iron' (actually I believe it was 'ironclad') was about the Lisbon Treaty (EU Constitution).
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You could crash the thread with the number of things wrong with it: Unaccountable, unelected (the EU Parliament is not where the power lies), expensive, unstoppable and anti-British. They suck up money, waste it, cover us in red tape, all of which satisfies a bunch of Eurocrats at the expense of everyone else.
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I agree with nearly all the points in the pink column. Signed a paid up, loyal member of the Party. Please listen Party leadership.
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Whilst I want to withdraw from the EU, this is why I would never vote UKIP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT5qRqHHoJo Because they are a bit of a joke.
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