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At Church of the churchless - Brian Hines has a post about cheating death. here's the link: http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2009/10/how-to-cheat-death-without-religion.html Here, I am taking the same subject from a different perspective. Sant mat offers HOPE. In fact that is the whole point of sant mat. Why follow sant mat? Because if you do - the master will come at the time of heath and take you by the hand to some inner region and from there the master will help you until you reach Sach Khand. How can anyone resist such an offer? If only it was true! Of course someone could... Continue reading
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True listening is rare. In our normal communication - we start with the premise that we are right. hence we are just listening and ready to jump on the speaker and show him/her that he/she is wrong. In order to do this we have the ammunition of our past : memories, experiences, stories, quotes, what mummy and daddy told me, what my fifth grade teacher told me, what the prient told me. We consider this to be proof that WE ARE RIGHT. All of our knowledge is just an accumlation of other people's knowledge. They have told us and we... Continue reading
The comments I express here are based on Faqir Chand's "Truth Always Wins" it can be read here: http://dlane5.tripod.com/faqtruth.html Chapter 1, para 3: I do not quote scriptures. I explain my personal experiences of physical, mental and spiritual realms in simple language. Until one does go beyond the mental regions, one cannot attain freedom from the duality of good or bad, sin or virtue, joy or sorrow, happiness or grief. Faqir Chand is not giving out a theory - he is speaking from his own experience. He talks about GOING BEYOND the mental regions. This means going beyond the mind... Continue reading
What is a REAL dialogue? A real dialogue is what happens when a Realised person meets with someone who WANTS to 'get it'. We can call the Realised person the Guru (if we want to - it is just a word) and the one who wants to get it can be called a disciple. The danger in doing this is that it can create all kinds of concepts about what the Guru should be and the disciple should be, which are more barriers to overcome. However, the essential ingredient is this: The Guru must be realized - in the sense... Continue reading
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Over at Church of the Churchless - there is a post called "A Dialogue about Radha Soami Satsang Beas" here's a link to it http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2009/08/a-dialogue-about-radha-soami-satsang-beas/comments/page/1/ It is a most intriguing post, as are many of the others there. However, this one is unusual because it shows the traps we fall into as seekers of truth. You can see it all there in real life. Someone makes a statement - and someone else takes it and gives it a new meaning and projects his own meaning onto it and proceeds to argue about the new meaning. Humans are brilliant at this.... Continue reading
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NAAM is greatly mis-understood. In sant mat - they say there is Varnatmik Naam and Dhunatmik Naam. Varnatmik means the word that is SPOKEN and WRITTEN. It is the MEANS. Dhunatmik is that which cannot be spoken. It is the goal - the real Naam. But what exactly is NAAM??? NAAM is REALIZATION of Truth. NAAM liberates you - REALIZATION liberates you. NAAM actually means REALIZATION. However, sant mat has mis-interpreted the real meaning. So initaites of sant mat repeat five words and wait for the shabd to manifest. They are going to have a long wait because it will... Continue reading
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Is there a way to TRUTH? Of course the question you have to ask even before that is - What is Truth? Truth means that which is BEYOND TIME AND SPACE. The REAL ONE. If you want to - you could call it God - or the ONE. When you realize this for yourself - You have realized the truth. This realization I speak of is not a theory - or a philosophy or an idea. It is not something you hear from other or read about. I am saying that you must have a REALIZATION of the truth that... Continue reading
I have been to satsang at many sant mat organisations. What happens? Well basically NOTHING. You attend for years and years and at the end - you get nothing. How can this be, when the scriptures speak so highly of satsang? Maybe, just maybe, this is not true satsang. Satsang is meant to transform your whole life and take you to realization. Yet in practise nothing happens. It can even get incredibly boring listening to the same old stories week after week and being told to attend to your meditation. Well I have news for you. The reason there are... Continue reading
We hear the words, but we do not understand. Why? because we are confused with all the concepts and ideas we have gathered all our life. Let's examine this all closely. What does ONENESS mean? it means there is only ONE. Nothing else exists. The ONE is all there is. What is DUALITY? Duality means what we perceive. The world of OBJECTS. There are MANY - this is duality. Everything has an opposite. Everything is within TIME and SPACE. Everything has a beginning and an END. Everything is BORN and DIES. Everything has a SHAPE and a FORM and attributes... Continue reading
BACKGROUND INFO Sant Mat means the teachings of the Masters. All masters have taught the way to realise God or the ONENESS. Sant mat is also known as Radha Soami Mat. Radha Swami originated in Agra 1818 with the birth of Swami Ji Maharaj (real name Shiv Dayal). He was initiated by Tulsi Sahib of Hatharas. After Swami Ji, there were at least 4 successors: Rai Saligram, Baba Gharib Das, Seth Pratap Singh, Baba Jaimal Singh. Jaimal Singh came to the Punjab and settled in Beas (the current headquarters of Radha Soami Satsang Beas - RSSB). Jaimal is not mentioned... Continue reading
George, My quote was "Enlightenment is a journey the destination of which is the realisation that there was no journey in first place and nobody to undertake the journey." You ask the question, So is enlightement a journey or not? NO - there is no journey. A journey implies distance and a destination. There is no distance, and no destination - and it therefore takes no time. The distance, the destination, the goal, and the "I" that undertakes the journey - are all fictional. You write: I am in the NOW. As I type this i sit back and think to myself i am in the now, yet i do not feel my "I" dissapearing or merging with the cosmos. Ha - You are not in the NOW - you are in memory and past/future. You do not enter the NOW by thinking "I am in the now". The 'I' will not disappear. You have already created a goal of it. You are waiting for the 'I' to disappears (i.e. an experience of cosmic consciousness). You have created a distance between the NOW and what you want to happen (i.e. for the 'I' to disappear). Next point: Everyone who realises the truth first undertakes the journey. I am not sure it if it true in all cases - but yes - it is often the case. Why? Because when you first seek - you do not have any idea of what the real journey is all about. You are deluded and so you do what all deluded people do - you seek. Is it necessary? No - it is the barrier. Does it help - NO. It takes you in the opposite direction. You wrote: surely there is nothing left for 'you' in this earthly realm and you might as well end it all since in fact there is no 'you'? If there is not 'ME' what am I ending? Or what is continuing? And who am 'I' to end it or continue it? You wrote If there really is only One, why do you think so many different forms and things have arisen? There is no 'why. You go to sleep - you dream and you create many forms in your dream. But in reality they are all delusions - actually there is only you asleep on the bed and dreaming. Where do the many arise from and why? It is a dream.
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Jarendra, How does discussion here confirm anything? It is simply discussion. It neither confirms nor denies anything. So a realised person cannot post on this blog? A realised person must sit on a mountain top in silent meditation, or what? If anyone who states anything knows nothing - then there is very little point in you even reading this blog - after all - anyone writing here must be blind according to you. There is a saying "Those who KNOWS do not say and those who say do not know." However, what this really means is: Truth is not a theory and cannot be expounded in a lecture or a satsang. It is not something that can be stated like we make other statements. It is a state of realisation that may be triggered in the company of someone who is realised. It does not mean that the realised person cannot speak or make any statements.
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Jen, It is not that self-realisation CAN happen in an instance. That is a mis-understanding. Self-realisation ALWAYS happens in ONE instance. It always happens NOW. Understand this statement and great clarity will arise. Self-realisation is not an EVENT - that happens at some specific TIME in the future. It is not something that is attained by the mind through effort. Everything else in life is an attainment that requires time and effort. Naturally we come to spirituality with the same mindset. So we set about trying to GET TO that state of self-realisation through effort in the form of meditation or any spiritual practice. This gives us the ILLUSION that we are trying to GET SOMEWHERE. But WHERE are we trying to get to? We believe that enlightenment is waiting for us in the future. We beleive we have to work for it - meditate, chant or whatever. This is the illusion of the mind. The mind wants to attain. You make enlightenment a GOAL - something to aim for. And you start aiming. You are on an endless journey and you will never arrive. This is the trap of paths like RS, and all the traditional religions. They subscribe to the idea that you have to DO something to get to a place called 'sach khand' or 'enlightenment' or 'nirvana' or 'heaven' The words don't matter. What matters is that there is a 'YOU' who is TRYING to get somewhere. As long as there is a YOU trying to get to some place - there will be effort and it will take time and you will live in the HOPE that one day it will happen. The truth is that you will never arrive because there is no such place. You are on a journey to nowhere. But actually you are already at the destination but do not know it. The destination is the realisation that there is only ONE and you are it. Not the YOU that you think you are - which is the personality and the body. The YOU that you really are - which has no form and no real identity. The moment you realise the truth - there is no longer a 'YOU' that realised it. The 'YOU' (=EGO) disappears meaning that you realise that the personality is not real. The personality is a made-up self-created identity. It is not YOU. The personality is seeking enlightenment or 'God' or 'Sach Khand'. However, the personality is not real so it can never find it. How can the unreal find the real? Enlightenment is a journey the destination of which is the realisation that there was no journey in first place and nobody to undertake the journey. The illusion is created by the 'separate YOU'. The moment the separate 'YOU' disappears, the truth becomes obvious - namely that there is nothing to do attain or achieve as there is no person to 'do' all this. There is no 'person' who is going to arrive at nirvana. So in summary - there are TWO ways. (1) TRY to get to 'self-realisation' through effort (2) simply realise the truth (1) strengthens the idea of the ego and a 'YOU' and thus keeps you trapped in the illusion. Most people - including me - spend YEARS and DECADES in the (1) path and get nowhere. The lucky ones like Brian Hines realise at some point that the whole path they are following is a trap and they leave - which takes tremendous courage - because who ever wants to admit that they were wrong for 20-30 years of their life?
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George: You quoted me: "These masters can talk such utter nonsense and nobody is going to say a thing. They are under a spell. The spell is called belief. The Master has spoken and it is the truth." and you wrote: Those are your subjective beliefs of the RS tradition, just as they subjectively believe their master speaks the truth and just as P3 claims to have an intuituve recognition, all are subjective. How is this is case? I gave two examples that clearly showed it was nonsense. In both cases what the so-called masters had stated went against their own teachings. This is not subjective. It shows they are making statements that do not make sense even in the context of their own teachings. You wrote: You say P3 requires no beliefs, not anthing, since he's simply seen through the nonsense? How has he done this and how do we know he has done this? Is he not just as deluded as the P3 examples you provide in their fundamental-like certainty? P3 is not living in the world of beliefs. He has not left one trap to fall into another. He has not left the sant mat belief system and become a sikh or a muslim. He has simply dropped following anything. P3 does not follow anything or anyone. He does not need to borrow knowledge from scriptures or teachers. He has found his own truth - namely the absense of all teachings and beliefs. P3 stands on his own feet. He does not lean on anyone. P1 cannot understand because he always leans on others - seeks someone who knows. p3 had done this by seeing through the delusion of beliefs. How? by simply opening his eyes. How do you know he has done this? You don't but you might get some idea if you listen to what he is saying. You will never know until it you do it. P3 cannot be deluded because in order to be deluded you must first have a belief. You say: I believe every human being lives in the mind. That is your BELIEF. What if you met someone who lives in a state of no-mind? Your belief might change. But how would you know? You might doubt. Belief/doubt - these are mind states. Beyond this is realisation. No mind is required. The mind does not realise the truth. The mind will never know because the mind cannot 'know'. The mind never 'knows' anything - it only creates concepts and lives in the world of concepts. It cannot escape this world. What we are doing in this blog is happening in the world of concepts. However, a P3 does not live in this world. You have to enter the next dimension in order to be like the P3. Of course a P3 still has a mind - but is not trapped by it. As Tucson stated: nobody can see for you. Tao states it brilliantly: Perceptions, intuitions, recognitions, and realizations are subjective, but they are not beliefs. Understand what a belief is. It is your opinion. It is not truth - but it appears to be true. Why? Because you have attached a label on which is written "It is TRUE". Remove the label. The label has been attached in error. The 'belief' is not 'true' but you think it is. When you remove all such labels - you enter the state of no-mind. And you see the madness of those who live in the mind. I consider this the beginning of awakening and true wisdom. To a P1, the P3 person at this point will appear to have lost his faith and fallen from the path. Actually the opposite is true. You want to enter the world of P3? Drop all labels of 'true' and 'untrue' as well as 'right' and 'wrong', and see what happens. The moment you notice a thought - realise it is not true or untrue it is just a thought. Stop valuing your own opinion. Your opinion and what you consider to be 'true' is not 'true' at all. it just appears to be -to you. How do you know what is true? I mean really. How do you 'know' anything is true? You examine the database in your mind and you look it up. If it says 'true' next to the database entry - you repeat like a robot "It is TRUE - I agree." The reaction is robotic and automatic. You are just acting like a robot. You are unaware. You think you are intelligent. You value the reply - you think it is the truth. The moment you see that it is just your past programming - you can let it go. Then you can truly say "I know nothing" and that is called dropping beliefs.
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George, you are absolutely correct. There is no way to objectively come to a conclusion, simply because you cannot take 'realisation' to a scientific lab and experiment with it. It is not a 'thing' and yes - it is subjective. What 'proof' is there? - there is none. All proof will require the mind - hence this is impossible. Strangely enough, P1 will take the same stance. P1 will say "You have to meditate and then you will get to Sach Khand." And if a P1 claims to have arrived, what can anyone else say? 30 years ago I used to follow Thakar Singh (sant mat master) and I was at his ashram in delhi. Someone said they heard the sound of bagpipes in meditation. Thakar Singh told him he has reached Sach Khand. Everyone just say sat there. Finally I spoke up. "But he cannot have reached Sach Khand - he has not even left the body or gone through any regions or met the radiant form within" Thakar's reply: "It does not matter - part of his soul has reached Sach Khand." I could hardly believe my ears. This guy was serious? or was this some joke. I looked around and everyone just believed him. This was just total nonsense. What is 'part' of the soul? This brings me to my point: You can justify any position at all. example 2: I had a mic discussion with the present guru dude at haynes park. He said: You cannot be realised because you are still in the body. I was going to say "But so are you." but decided to be more diplomatic. "You mean - as soon as you get enlightened - you will leave the body?" "Yes - nothing can keep you here." was the reply. "Well in that case - who will help the others to reach?" I said. "They will just help each other." came the reply. This is the point: These 'masters' can talk such utter nonsense and nobody is going to say a thing. They are under a 'spell'. The 'spell' is called belief. The 'Master' has spoken and it is the truth. They can no longer think for themselves. He had just invalidated the fundamental principle of sant mat and nobody even realised it. The 'master' is supposed to be realised. Yet he had said that the moment realization happens - you will die. So no master is really enlightened - as he will die the moment enlightenment happens. Sant mat says the master is needed. He had just said that the master is not enlightened because he is in the body. P2 lives in BELIEF. And the belief he has is nonsense. He just believes blindly and hopes that one day it will happen. Now we come the the fundamental difference between P1 and P3. P3 does not wait for anything to happen. He is not seeking, waiting or believing. There is no 'future' to look forward to. No Sach Khand to reach. He requires no beliefs, theories, practices, methods, techniques, moral codes, prayers, meditations, or masters. He has seen through all the nonsense and stands alone in the here and now. Nothing to reach, strive for or attain. Just to call it something - I might choose to call this 'enlightenment'. It is just a label. But it describes a non-attainment. Someone said to me recently - "You're not enlightened." I said - "You are right - but you are speaking from ignorance, because you think enlightenment is a stage you reach. In truth nobody is enlightened - the words is just used as a teaching device. It is not literally true. Some people choose to use it and some don't. It is personal. Some use 'Nirvana' because nirvana means no-thing - the absence of all things." You say - P1 might be right and P3 might be right. I say that P1 cannot be right. Why? because he is dealing with duality. P1 lives in the mind and mind-constructs - which is all illusion. You can create any delusion you like within the mind. P3 is not interested in any delusion - hence no interest in 'experience'. P3 realises that anything within time and space is an illusion. Any 'thing' is an illusion. Truth is beyond any 'thing'. You cannot de-construct what P3 is saying because there is nothing to de-construct. P3 is not claiming anything. P3 is not claiming any 'thing'. He is simply aware there is no 'thing'. He has no 'spiritual attainment' has not arrived anywhere. You cannot ask him to prove his claim as he only has a non-claim. And non-claims do not require proof.
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quoting from june 04 10:51am posting by Tucson: George wrote: "If something is non-conceptual, it means it is uknowable to the human mind, which means the P3 type is no closer to the truth than P1, since P3 claims nothing, there is nothing to know." --I think that is correct. It is not known, but rather recognized intuitively. P3 simply realizes there is no 'truth' to get closer to or farther away from. That is, this 'truth' is not any static thing that can be pinned down as an object known. MY COMMENT: P1 and P3 live in different worlds. If you miss this - you will miss the whole point. P1 BELIEVES. If he believes strongly he may CREATE his experience and think it is objective and real. It is not - it cannot be. Why? because any 'experience' is UNREAL - it changes and it has a 'perceiver'. 'Enlightenment' (for want of a better word) is not an experience. There are no dazzling lights - no Sat Purush to bow down to. No 'thing' to experience. Understand P3: He does not DISBELIEVE. BELIEVE and DISBELIEVE are both STATES OF MIND. If you LIVE in the mind - you will BELIEVE/DIS-BELIEVE. That is all you know. There is no other state of being. Now enter P3: P3 has no interest in BELIEF. Neither is he a believer, nor a dis-believer. Belief requires FAITH. A non-believer has no faith. P3 has nothing to do with either. P3 lives in a state BEYOND the mind. Hence the MIND (logic) will not understand. It cannot - it is impossible. The most the mind can do is understand that it cannot understand. So then - what do we do? If we cannot understand - then what? Then you GIVE UP even trying to understand. Give up EFFORT. Give up seeking - give up the mind. Now what happens? Suddenly - in a split second - you realise that you have been living a FALSE LIFE - INSIDE the MIND. The MIND DROPS - and NIRVANA appears (don't get hung up on words). NIRVANA is the ABSENCE of all mind-creations (incl beliefs). It is a state BEYOND (1) TIME (2) SPACE (3) MIND and (4) EXPERIENCES. It is not an ATTAINMENT - nothing has been achieved or attained. Rather the opposite has happened. The desire to attain has disappeared. Why? because there is nothing to attain or achieve. All attainments and achievements are mind-creations. In the state of NO-MIND (another word) there is nothing to DO or ATTAIN. P3 will never be understood. Why? because it is not a MIND-STATE. and everyone is trying to understand USING the mind. Tucson states: No 'answer' will ever be revealed on this blog. Notice the word 'ever'. It cannot happen because the 'mind' is trying to understand and it will never happen. Tucson says: non-duality deconstructs ALL CONCEPTS - EVEN ITSELF. Understand this and you will get closer to the truth. Non-Duality is NOT a concept. Nothingness is not a concept. The mind is trying to grasp - what cannot be grasped. The moment 'trying' stops - truth dawns. The answer was here all the time. Enlightenment is a journey - the destination of which is the realisation that there was NO JOURNEY in the first place and NOBODY to undertake the journey. George goes on to reply: Thank you for your answers. I can say I have gained no-thing from them, but in this case, it sounds like a good thing... If you have gained no-thing - you have gained the only thing worth gaining. The Buddha himself said he FAILED to find - but in that failing - nirvana revealed itself.
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I have a poster at home. I has a picture of a baby. He is sitting there - with nothing. The words state :- No Money. No Girlfriend. No Job. No Problem. Now that's what you call enlightened. If there is any such thing. There are so many stories that say man has fallen. Adam and Eve. Everything was cool. Then Adam ate fruit from the tree "Of the knowledge of good and bad" (bad=evil) In other words - until then - Adam did not know what was good and what was bad. Adam had no 'problem'. Nothing was good or bad - so life was life. It is what it is. Then - once Adam ate the fruit. He saw he was naked and he hid from God. Now he has a mind - good and bad has entered. Now he has a problem. This was the fall of Adam - the story says. Every child is Adam. Born in the garden of Eden. Every child 'falls' because he eats the forbidden fruit. He enters the world of 'good and bad'. You become as a child again by dropping all the dualistic concepts given to you by religions. Like that 'there is something wrong' and 'you need to be good'. "You need to meditate or pray or recite or whatever' in order to 'please God'. The assumption is that God is displeased in the first place. You have created God as if he was a man. It is not that God created man in his own image. Man created God to be like himself - like a human. You used to please your parents - now you try to please God. The Guru becomes a 'father figure'. It is only out of your own insecurity that you create a God. Then you get trapped by your own concept of God. Sant mat comes to the rescue in the form of a Guru who will take you to Sach Kahnd and all your problems will be over. Hence the attraction of the sant mat path. The Buddha said "There is no saviour - not even me." Why? because there is no problem in the first place. See how the whole trap is created. Life was wonderful when you were a child. You smiled for no reason. Now every human is trapped by their own concept of God. break free and you get closer to the child-like state again. The mind creates the problem. Inherently life is simply life - however, the mind wants more - it seeks to achieve more. It wants to arrive somewhere. It is not happy just being here and now. It wants there and later. Now the spiritual journey becomes a goal and a struggle. And nobody gets 'there'. They all live in hope and die in vain. Unless you 'wake up' and realise that it is a mind-trap. The Buddha did not find 'truth' or Nirvana until he gave up. Anything within Space ('there') and Time (when will it happen?) is all part of the trap. Truth simply means - No Time and No Space. That means nothing happens - it cannot because Time is required for events to happen.
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P3 - how does he get his insight? Well - he doesn't. Just as the Buddha did not DO anything to get his. The Buddha GAVE UP. But a REAL giving up - not a fake one. When you give up - something happens - of its own accord. What happens is - insight comes. You do not bring it - there is no effort - no path - no method. I am simply saying - no effort is required. If you follow any method that requires you to MEDITATE or PRAY or RECITE or CHANT - or DO ANYTHING at all. The method will keep you trapped in SEEKING THE GOAL. That very seeking - will keep you in duality. The harder you try - the further you get. Why is this? Because effort IS THE EGO - nothing else. Effort comes from YOU and YOU are the BARRIER. If YOU STOP the effort - the trying - the meditation - then YOU will disappear. In the same moment - truth will dawn. You can call this truth by many names. It is your choice. Words, names - these are all the play of the mind. You can call it God, Enlightenment, Nirvana, Truth, Oneness.... I may call it Enlightenment - I may say I am enlightened. But in the next breath I may say there is no such thing as 'enlightenment' because - it is not an achievement and there is nobody to get enlightened. Is it really so difficult to understand? ANYTHING that YOU achieve will be within DUALITY simply because there was a YOU who achieved it. As for me - let me make it clear. I have achieved NOTHING - hence I expended no effort in getting to 'nothing'. Your problem is that you think nothing is 'something'. Hence you want it - the desire is created and you run after it. I am saying do not run. Just relax. Have a cup of tea. The entire TRAP is created in the mind and by the mind. It's really simple. There is NO SACH KHAND. There is NO SAT PURUSH. There are NO REGIONS. There are NO 'LORDS oF EACH REGION.' You do not need to recite five words - which represent the NAMES of the FIVE LORDS - as a sort of password to get to the next region. Can't you see - this is a fairy tale - a cosmic joke. ANYONE who tells you any form of fairy tale is deluded. If you follow them - you will remain in duality. RS is such a fairy tale. Just because a lot of people believe the fairy tale - does not make it true. A lot of children believe in Santa Claus - but that does not make him real. How is P3 different from P1? It is simple. P1 has not even begun the journey - but is trying. P3 knows there is no journey and no 'person' to walk it. P3 is an ordinary person - and does not need to claim anything as there is nothing to claim. P3 is just having a cup of tea - enjoying the scenery around him. P1 is very serious and wants to 'get there fast' and 'please his Guru... by doing lots of meditaiton and seva.'
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A, Knowing, not knowing. There is a third state. Let me call it BEYOND KNOWING. A person who lives only in knowing/unknowing will not understand. Someone makes a statement - lets call it statement A. A - The only way to get to Sach Khand is to meditate. Then there is a statement B. B - In order to meditate you need a Master who will initiate you. Finally a statement C. C - In order to progress you need to believe in A and B Lets say there are three people in our universe called P1 P2 and P3. P1 is a BELIEVER and believes in A B and C. He is a follower and has FAITH. He thinks he KNOWS there is a Sach Khand and a Master and a Path and he is ON IT. He appears to be ALL WISE - but in fact is knows nothing. His so-called 'knowing' is of a theory based on A B and C. He may even give talks and satsangs on the theory of A B and C. When challenged - he will say he is just giving out the teachinigs. He has not reached Sach Khand but he is an Eternal Hopeful - and HOPEFULLY - there will come a day when he will reach. That day is called ONE DAY. P1 lives in the eternal hope of getting to ONE DAY. However, ONE DAY never arrives. Lots of days keep going by, but the ONE DAY he seeks never comes. P1 is a good satsangi - a believer. Then there is P2. P2 has something called DOUBT. This means he is a non-believer. He is a skeptic. He asks for proof before he believes. However there is no proof. P1 tells him he has to meditate - and for a while he does - but does not get his proof. Disgusted - he gives up. He remains a non-believer. So now enter P3. P3 neither believes - nor dis-believes. Why? because he is aware that the whole thing is nonsense. (1) There is no Sach Khand (2) Hence no meditation is required (3) Since there is no Sach Khand there is nowhere to 'get to'. P3 does not BELIEVE. He also does not DOUBT. He simply sees beyond it. Then something happens to P3. The ONE DAY happens. He has an AWAKENING (I have to call it something!). The awakening gives him GLIMPSES of truth. Lets just call it ONENESS. He realises that there is no Sach Khand because that is just a CONCEPT. Hence there is no PLACE to get to. Since there is no place - there is no path and no secret technique (meditation). Why because there is no HERE and THERE - these are both concepts within time and space. The TRUTH he is discovering is beyond time and space - beyond mind - beyond 'understanding'. For simplicity lets call it NOTHING. If P3 speaks - you will not understand because you are in a world of knowing/unknowing and belief/non-belief. You live in the mind and he speaks of that which is beyond mind. ===================== Here is the problem. P1 is trying to get P2 and P3 to BELIEVE. P3 just laughs at the idea. To P3 it is just a joke. P2 is in the middle ground - not sure - not understanding - and yes - confused. manish - you are a P1. Many of the people here are not P2s. They are P3s. That is why it is such a joke that the P1 is trying to convince the P3. It is impossible because P3 has transcended the need to 'know' P3 is aware that it is nonsense and you can never convince him. Let's see why. P3 does not lack faith. It is not that he has FALLEN!!! He does not require picking up. Something else has happened, Manish, something else. Something that you cannot even imagine. P3 has arrived at the place you call Sach Khand. Except he does not call it Sach Khand. P3 has MET God. Except he does not call her God. He might call it the ONE. ONE means there is no other. No YOU and no ME. No SOUL that has to MERGE. These are all CONCEPTS created within the mind. They are MAPS of reality and a MAP is NEVER reality - just a representation that is confusing the hell out of people. A Map is flat - and has a scale. It has nothing to do with the actual territory. It just represents it. It is not similar to it. You cannot get an idea of the mountains by looking at a map of the mountains. P3 has dropped the mind. Hence he does not BELIEVE and does not DOUBT. Neither. The Buddha FAILED to FIND what he was looking for. In that FAILURE he realised the truth: that was he was looking for does not exist. A great peace came over him. He realised that he is the ONE - there is nothing else. This is not an ATTAINMENT or an ACHIEVEMENT. It is the dropping of ALL DESIRE to attain. There is nothing to attain, because attainment happens only in duality. P1 is trying to attain. P2 is has given up. P3 is not even trying - not because he has failed - but because he has realised that the statements A B and C are simply not true. A B and C are works of fiction. P3 does not doubt them = he simply sees through them and has a good laugh. Manish - you cannot understand P3. It is beyond you. You are stuck in the state of a P1. You needs to STOP BELIEVING if you ever want to escape the trap. But you cannot because BELIEF is all you know. It is your life. And those who believe will always remain blind because the belief will keep them blind. They cannot find truth because they are not seeking it - they want the truth to fit into their belief! This will never happen. P1 will create his own experiences and that will become his proof. The experiences are DELUSION. Please read Faqir Chand - the unknowing sage. Truth is BEYOND experience. Experience requires TWO. There is only ONE. You can never experience the ONE or say anything about it.
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Hi People, WOW - that was funny. I just made a few passing remarks - and opened up a whole can of worms. MANISH - let me first address your responses. Too long to go into all of them - but I will summarise beiefly. (1) Please read that Tao has written in response to you - just above this response. Manish - calm down - relax. Take it easy. Have a cup of tea. Please understand - I have not left sant mat because I have failed to achieve anything. On the contrary - I realized the truth and then saw how crazy the sant mat concepts are! Anyway - forget me - even your own leader - Maharaj Guringer Singh Ji says the same thing. I have heard it in person. "If any of you think you understand sant mat - you are mistaken. All you have is CONCEPTS - and they are ALL INCORRECT" This much is true - all you have is concepts. Listen Manish - sant mat is a BELIEF system. ALL BELIEF SYSTEMS - all paths - all religions not just sant mat - ALL of them are a TRAP. Why? because the poor seeker is LOST and becomes EVEN more lost. A TRUE MASTER (and yes - I do consider that someone who is 'enlightened' can help others - and I choose to call that person a Master - or a 'teacher or truth') will be able to HELP you to AWAKEN to truth. Of course you first need to be OPEN and RECEPTIVE. This is what the past masters and gurus did. They DID NOT prescribe MEDITATION as the panacea for all ills. In fact if you read Ashthvakra - he is telling Janak that ALL SADHAHA (incl Meditation) is the BARRIER to truth. He tells him that the DOER must disappear and cannot happen while he is DOING. Sant mat - takes examples from past masters and USES them for it's own benefits. The listeners to a satsang ASSUME it MUST be the truth and that's it. Game over. They are caught in the trap. They think they understand - they think they have the 'right path'. When all they have is CONCEPTS. Listen - what is SHABD? or NAAM? I mean really - what is this mystical shabd? I put it to you - that it is just a concept!!!! I used to do satsangs for RSSB. I was eventually banned. But I enjoyed the ride. It was fun. And I learned so much about people and how they get trapped. I only did it for entertainment. I sometimes go to the mic and have a discussion with Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji. All for entertainment. What else is there? It is all a cosmic game. That is why I say - relax and have a cup of tea. So let me make it clear. I have not failed in sant mat. I meditated and followed it for 30 years. I met no less than six sant mat masters personally and had long discussions with them. I followed some of them. My conclusion - many are sincere - but are deluded. Sant mat will not lead to truth - I am making this as an absolute statement. I challenge you to show me a single person who has arrived by following sant mat. My friend, such a person does not exist. I have even heard Gurinder saying it openly in santsang. Wake up - will you? Everyone in sant mat - thinks the next person has attained. Many used to think that the 'speakers' had attained. Then you realise they are no than puppets. They read the recite. They have no experience of the truth. Manish, Grab a brain, will ya? Go to the Brain shop (not Brian shop - as you seemed to get Brain and Brian mixed up a lot). Bulleh Shah says - "The rest is all talk - The ONE is the truth. The speakers (those who do satsang) are making a lot of noise. The papers (scriptures) have confused everyone." RSSB is come a LONG WAY from the initial days. Even 40 years ago - ONLY THE MASTER did satsang. I remember when it was first suggested that another person give satsang. It was a shock. Now everyone and his mother appears to be qualified to give a talk. Anyone like me who is a little more outspoken is banned - it is all politics. I gave a RSSB talk in one of the centres. Of the 50 people attending - about 30 came to talk to me. Why? Because what I say awakens them - does not send them to sleep. Sleep means to be comfortable in your beliefs. Truth only dawns once you drop all beliefs. Manish - in conclusion - you have NO HOPE. You said earlier that you had changed - and was open to these discussions. Manish - you are a BRAIN washed follower. You cannot understand what TAO and others are saying. Why? Because you cannot listen. You have no ears. That is why I say - the best thing is a cup of tea. Manish - I have found the truth - so has Tao - we are not seeking anything. There is nothing to seek - There is no GOD - No Sat Purush livig in Sach Khand. It was all a nice story made up so you could follow. I tried to get to Sach Khand. Then one day I realised there is no such place. And also no GOD - as a separate being. There is only the ONE. Nothing else. Realise the ONE and it is over. Try to get to Sach Khand and you will remain trapped forever in a world of concepts. ALXS: In response to what you have written. I know what Manish is seeking because it shows in his writing. He is a follower of his own version of sant mat. He is clearly not realised and he is seeking to get to the goal of sant mat. You don't have to be a genius to figure this out. Am I acting like a master by making these comments? So anyone who makes a deduction is now a master? I am not leaving an opening because we are not face to face. If we were - it would be a very different discussion.
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Manish, A number of points that you might find helpful (or might not!) RSSB is an organisation that has become a cult. It can no longer help someone to find truth because it has become the problem not the solution. Nothing personal - it happens to all organisations. Truth is what you are seeking. But you cannot find it by following. A True Master will throw you back on yourself. There is no teaching - no path and no answer. Spirituality is a journey you undertake the destination of which is the discovery that there was no journey and no person to take the journey. No Master gives you answers. All questions come from the mind. The purpose of a spiriual master is to take you to a place of no-mind. I don't mean to stop questioning or stop thinking - both of which are impossibnle anwyay - the most you can do is suppress the questions and the mind. That is what followers of RSSB have done. They pretend - they reach a pseudo state of peace. Actually they are just following blindly. The process of getting to 'truth' is the opposite - to fully express yourself. To BE yourself - without trying to be a 'good' person. To go beyond all the conditioning of your parents, teachers and society and be yourself. RSSB cannot help you because they have a set of rules. Meditation is not required to find truth. No amount of meditation will ever take you to truth - becuuse YOU will always remain - the meditator - and YOU are the barrier to truth. So wat is 'Truth'? Truth is to simply BE. Not be 'anything'. Let life be life and do not try to be 'holy' or 'unholy' Zen amsters would call each other 'old bags of snad' to make sure they never fell into this trap of 'respect. You are trying to get free - but taking the concepts of sant mat with you. Drop them - they are all nonsense - they are all lies.
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