Love your updates Byron! I bet it is beautiful up in Minnesota this time of the year. I have yet to get to Clearwater Forest but the pictures I have seen and the stories I have heard tell me it is nothing short of spectacular. What a blessing to have a place for you and others to meet to discuss and share current and important topics, and for our children, youth and young adults to come and experience the love of God, the Good News of Jesus Christ, and experience the Holy Spirit in the beauty of God's creation! Blessings to all who had the vision to set such space aside and for those who continue to make it a place of faith growth and retreat.

You said it Byron and this is something that I think is being raised up and questioned a lot now a days in our denomination. But what to do with it? We are trying lots of things I know but how to embrace the wideness and wonderfulness that is our God and our myriad responses to God's call - and still hold onto what is good about our Presbyterian traditions? We are in a time of discernment - I call it chaos - in the PCUSA. You either enjoy and embrace being a part of this transforming, or you resist it. God created the world out of Chaos and that is happening in our denomination. Where it leads, only God knows but I'm so glad to be on this journey with you and others who speak so freely and with truth as you see it. Keep on keeping on Byron!

Labels. Categories. Boxes. That's what we are good at. When we "feel" something, we want to label it in a way others can "relate" to. Our minds are made to pick up patterns and make sense of things that way. Byron, I get what you are saying. I have been asking, "if there is an "Emergent Worship" movement...what is "Emergent Camping?" I have yet to answer that but it is always good to answer. I guess I would say in response to your comments that something is emerging. God is "Birthing Something New!" Some of us hope it will be still labeled "Presbyterian" and some of us are pragmatic enough to know that Post-Denominational really has to mean that eventually right?! Before I start rambling - you clarified something I have been struggling with - Boxes and labels. It's what we are good at. I hope for us that we can just "be" in the presence of the Spirit as the Spirit moves through, with, and in spite of ourselves. And that where ever we find God speaks best to us, we can call that home - our God home. Our place where God calls us to do great things in God's name. If that has to be "emergent" for one culture, or just a different shade of worship in a different culture, then I think I can live with that.

I agree with both sides of this conversation - it is easy to be a Christian today - but what kind of Christian? The ones that Rush Limbaugh and others espouse? A you are either with us or against us? You are either saved or in need of saving? Or a loving, inviting, reformed, and welcoming faith? A faith based on the Grace that God has gifted us with that we struggle to live up to and reflect to others? I would refer you to "Asphalt Jesus" by Eric Elnes of Countryside Community UCC in Omaha Nebraska (www.countrysideucc.org/). In his book about a walk across the country spreading a reformed message of faith - he breaks down Christians into 3 groups - Good Friday Christians - these folks create more heat than light. They are pointing out what is wrong with the world, the sin in the world, and how we need to repent. This is a group that you are either with us or against us. They get the lion's share of the media attention. The next group is the Holy Saturday Christians. What did the disciples do on Holy Saturday? They hid in the upper room. They were afraid to be labeled a follower of Jesus for fear of persecution. Today, the majority of Christians, according to Elnes, live in Holy Saturday. Because the Good Friday Christians have hijacked the conversation, they don't want to be seen as "those Bible Banging" Christians by friends or others in the "secular" world we live in. But the exciting part of Eric's vision is Easter Christians. These are Christians living a life of faith as they believe God is calling them to. They welcome others to join them. They walk with others on their faith journey. They exhibit and rejoice in the gifts God has bestowed upon them and others, and they are willing to listen to and love those who disagree with them, because that is what God would have them do. So yes and no. It is easy to be a Christian, but hard to live in Easter. Live the resurrection where God, through Jesus, triumphed over death and over the world that persecuted others. They could not kill Jesus, he was beyond that. Jesus is calling us to live that life, even unto death (even unto embarrassment or fear of being labeled). How many of us are brave enough to do that? If we keep living in Holy Saturday, we can be assured that our faith and our denomination will continue to shrink.

I second that Amen! It is easy to get caught up in worries for the Church. But isn't the Church just a vehicle to spread the word, share the word and act on the word? Without churches, would that still go on? I argue that it would - though it would be disjointed and would be hard to keep education and sharing growing. We might splinter into smaller factions than we already are - OR - the spirit might use those smaller groups to be called into action. That action will draw others together and a NEW Church will be born. Sort of a Phoenix. A Phoenix needs to go through fire to be re-born. Maybe that's what's happening? Do you really think God will abandon us during out times of trial, doubt and secularism? I don't. We might abandon God, but God is still moving and as the UCC ads say - God is still speaking...are we listening? Roger Nishioka shared with the Presbyterian Church Camp and Conference Assocation (PCCCA) gathering at Calvin Center outside of Atlanta in 2007 that the coming generation (if you use the 4 cycles of generations theory) will be the institution builders. He then went on to warn us Presbyterians lamenting decline to not get too excited - THEY WILL NOT BE RE-BUILDING YOUR INSTITUTIONS, THEY WILL BUILD THEIR OWN! A shocking, but true statement. I also heard Bruce Reyes-Chow state at the recent GAC elected meeting in Louisville (March) that he doesn't know that an institution can change into something else if it doesn't know what it is changing into - and I argue that the Presbyterian church as a whole will tell you what they don't want to be, but has a hard time articulating what they do want to me. So, when does what we do become focused on survival and not living and emboding the word of Christ? Living the faith? I think we are getting close to that point in many areas. Sure I love being Presbyterian and I don't know what I would do if there was no longer the Presbyterian denomination to call home, but I can guarantee you that if that day comes, God will be there, he will be speaking and he will be leading the way to greener pastures - and we will look back and say - wow!? What were we doing with all that time back then when we were lost in the wilderness!? Great thread. Keep it coming!

Wow! Sounds like you had quite a trip! They sure keep you busy. I always struggle with my travels and the "tyrany of the immediacy" to take time to think about and discuss the larger issues, not just what is needed for the event/audience I am with next. I hope you are able to take the time to do that. I know you are meeting some amazing people and that that is enriching your faith and your life in general! Keep on keeping on, though I hope they give you time to breath too! Peace, Brian