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Jörg Brörmöller
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@Hector07 Well, Iran does have more blogs than Germany but that is beside the point. And that means exactly what? But yes, it is beside the point. Take a look at how America is depicted in the German media (not to mention in the school system) and the message is more simlar to what we see in Iran than you may care to admit. Well, if you really must... If they seem so similar to you, well, I geuss there is little left to argue about. Obviosuly you have spoken with many Brits, French, Spanish, Portuguese, or Italians (not to mention Dutch) since the 1970s or 1980s. Indeed. I worked in two large international scientific communities through the '80ies and '90ies. [For such a self-righteous culture which likes to point out the faults of everyone else, you seem to have very thin skin.] "From what do you conclude that?" Easy, from the reactions of the majority of Germans when their government's policies (or media) are criticized. Been there many times, done that many times, have a warehouse full of t-shirts. The majority of Germans? I do declare! Or do you mean the majority of those that you have happened to talk to, which is a completely different ball game. However, given the evidence in this hyah fahn blog I'd be chary about too much fingerpointing. Ah, so you've decided to personalize the debate, a sure sign of someone out of ideas... Nice try. However, I meant exactly what I wrote. After spending more than a few years of my life in Germany, I'm not quite ready to write them all off (though the rhetoric of the past few years is getting me closer). Your energetic defense of the German media shows you are not either. Not really. To paraphrase the Bard, I've come to bury Germany, not to praise it. What amuses me is that this blog uses exactly the same methods they purports to criticise, selective editing, slanted reinterpretation, false representation, blatant propagandising, glaring fabrication and the like. Add to that the righteous, if quite often illinformed borborygmi of the claque and you have the typical loo-wall of the internet. Mission statement, forsooth! However, if you endeavour to save the benighted Germans from their media, you've chosen a strange venue. You'd be better off writing to you local congress critter or pestering you local media on that subject. For a pointed view on the glory, the splendor and the wonder that is the Web, I'd like to direct you to this: Just don't expect to be taken seriously on ta blog, their credibility is nothing to phone home about. As for me, short shameful confession: I some like to slum little bit. Jörg
Toggle Commented Aug 9, 2007 on With "Allies" Like This... at Davids Medienkritik
The committment (agreed between all 26 NATO allies) to spend 2% of GDP on defense. Germany has not even tried. True. However, try to ransack the pockets of a naked man. Not to mention Steinmeier rhetoric, Merkel rhetoric, Fischer rhetoric. Think about it = this is the message your country is sending to the world so if there is a disconnect, its yours to solve, not ours. (This is what our German "friends" always tell us with regard to Bush's antics so it must be a completely valid thought, oder?). Well, partially true. One should remember that Steinmeier is a holdout from the the Schröder-area. However, durch den normativen Zwang des Faktischen, even he had to tone down his rethoric. The SC-issue is a dead horse, and wasn't taken too seriously in Germany anyway. I guess it would have warmed the cockles of quite a few if it had come to pass, however even then there were a lot of warning voices that raised pointed questions about the follow-up costs. As things go, this ambition and others like it are a bit like dead yeast in beer, they are harmless and do not cause any trouble. The Germans do put down their crosses on the ballot, and they have to bear those selfsame crosses for the next four years or so. Agreed, and Germany has proven itself unwilling to do so, leaving those tasks for other nations (and thus losing credibility with its allies). Germany has been quite upfront about the constraints it puts on the use of German armed forces, so where is the beef? German soldiers killing other people do not go down well in Germany. That little quip of some USAian general last November about the Germans having to learn to kill didn't help any. You should notice that there is even more public revulsion about killing than getting killed. bObviously, you are shameless, Suffer me to be unimpressed. That type of "clever repartee" was old when this discussion was held on USENET. But the funny part is that shame is what Germany (and German individuals) so often like to use on others, especially against the "great Satan" USA. Now I get it. You are mistaking Germany with Iran. An easy mistake to make. However, the "Huh? Duh!"-reaction is exactly what they'll get in response. The cultural incomprehension goes both ways, you know? So it seems the BR-Deutschers are the ones trying to "pull emotional triggers." Thanks for the Freudian irony - LOL. What's the matter, don't like the taste of your own medicine? BR-Deutsche, if you please. Of course they do. And of course it doesn't work, which is quite amusing. The Germans don't react to, what amounts to in highflown rethoric, "fraidy-cat, fraidy-cat, yeller, yeller, chick-chick-chiken, spoilspost" and somesuch. The USAians in turn don't react to "Bah, icky death penalty! Bleah, Gun-worshipers! Eeeuww, Unilateralists!" and sundry guff. I consider it complete futile to discuss those points. Been there, done that, got the fucking tee-shirt. You'll also note (if you bothered to read) that the criticisms of BR-Deutschers I've outlined are most stridently put forward by the French, Brits, Portuguese, Spanish, Italians, and others, to a greater degree than by Americans. Is that a fact? Actually, I seem to remember, that the British were pretty uptight, but they mostly are about matters German. As to the others, you'd have to point out some references. As in the case of the Spanish and the Portugese, it would be a bit hypocritical, now wouldn't it. As for Italians, during the Berlusconi-Regime there were many aspersions directed Germany's way. However, it is not that certain criticism is unjustified. But der Ton macht die Musik. For such a self-righteous culture which likes to point out the faults of everyone else, you seem to have very thin skin. From what do you conclude that? Look, after summing up a lot of commentary on this site on Germany and the Germans I find myself mostly in agreement with them. Germany is a shitty little inconsequential country full of overbearing and selfrighteous jerks, unlovely and unlovable, sliding down the rusty shute into history's incinerator in a mismatic fog of socialism, despair and authoritarian Kadavergehorsam. Yes, it'll be overrun by the islamics, yes, it'll die due to lack of internal procreation, yes, the Germans are so obrigkeitshörig that they'll sell their liberties to the EU and the Federal government. The Germans are cowardly, backstabbing, uncouth, oberlehrerhafte, loud, impolite sheeple. All this is demonstrably true. What shame? Now, what puzzles me is the emotional energy that you, and others, invest in such a case of collective cultural braindeath. Its a bit like trying to teach a pig to sing, it won't happen and it annoys the animal. All that possibly productive energy going to waste? Wouldn't it be much more profitable to write off Germany as the bad case it is, as countries like Myanmar, Iran or North Korea have already been written off, and invest the energy in something near home, perhaps? Or is it rather that you enjoy a bit of righteous handwringing, futile as it may be, while reinforcing and and reconfirming your perceptions about the perfidity of the German press in particular and the perfidity of the Germans in general in the reflected light of communing with your comrads in arms? Jörg
Toggle Commented Aug 8, 2007 on With "Allies" Like This... at Davids Medienkritik
@Hector07 And as to your second installment, you need to take a look at what your leaders have signed up Germany to do in NATO, the EU, and the UN. The German government has already signed on for a number of projects and committments but their credibility is lacking because they follow through half-heartedly and always slide toward the easiest tasks. Point out the commitments that weren't fulfilled to the letter of the agreements reached between FRG and NATO. Step up to what? Step up to your government's rhetoric, step up to meet your promises, step up to behave like a wealthy nation 0f 80 million, step up like a nation which expects to be a permanent member if the UNSC. Step up to being worthy of then place in the world Germany expects and so often demands. Ah, I see. You are caught up in the Schröder rethoric. While fuchur's remark was phrased a little disingenuous, he did have a point. There is quite a bit of disconnect between the government rethoric and what the public, Cthulhu bless its flabby little black heart, really thinks. And there fuchur is point on. Most people would consider the above paragraph comletey off the mark, since it mostly adresses nonissues they wouldn't consider important. It's quite enough that Germany does well in the Soccer World and EU Championships, thank you. The other stuff is just politico-talk. And the public is not yet reconceiled to the concept, that "der Tot das normale Ende eines soldatischen Arbeitstags sein kann." So, how is a "wealthy nation of 80 million" supposed to behave, pray sirrah? I'm quite unclear on that. The Bundeswehr may have a number of issues but they still have plenty of capacity to provide what is needed; trained troops, helicopters, and communications. No one is asking anyone for divisions but for 1-2 battalion with a few helicopters. Surely Germany can spare a few of these from time to time (and not just to hand out teddy bears). Well, take it up with the BMVG and the Bundestag. They can be easily spared. Putting them into harms way, or worse putting other people into their harms way is a completely different ball game. Ah, by the way, Germans do not shame well, as been pointed out here. Your series of postings seem to try to shame, cajole, harangue or wheedle "the Germans" on the path of righteous action. You are trying to pull emotional triggers that are strictly culture specific and in your case strictly USAian. Accusing Germans or Germany of cowardice, unwillingness to fight, conduct unbecoming a "wealthy nation" or other such guff, for instance, will result strictly in a "Huh? Duh!" reaction of mutual incomprehension. Jörg
Toggle Commented Aug 8, 2007 on With "Allies" Like This... at Davids Medienkritik
@fuchur It's not "constructive" to say that selling weapons to Islamist dictatorships maybe isn't such a clever idea? It's anti-American to state the obvious: America's infrastructure is in bad shape? WTF? It is instructive to look at the web site that is affiliated with the person quoted in a lot of the articles, Bill Marcuson, If one wanted to cast aspersion at the Spiegel article, it is much easier to claim that the article merely rephrased the statements on the web site. According the ASCE report card, the US-infrastructure doesn't, overall, rate more than a D+ or a C-, with demerits for neglect oif maintenance. But what really cracks me up is that now we apparently don't even care about reality any more: Ray just *knows* that the evil anti-American German media *will* blame Bush for the bridge in Minnesota. Didn't happen, though. Of course, when at all, the Republican Governor and his practises wrt. to maintenance versus new contruction is getting an airing, albeit second hand through the good offices of the icky US-MSM. Just as he got his knickers all into a twist about that innocuous article about "objetophilia". Man kann die Suppe auch solange kämmen, bis man Haare darin findet. Must have been a slow week. What is even more remarkable, if somewhat unsurprising ist the omission of reporting on certain articles, such as the 10-page article in the Spiegel that was a glowing pean to the US reconstruction and pacification of Iraq, extolling the dedication, the fortitude and the seriousness of the soldiers on the ground and a plea for continuing the good work. It was written by an embedded Spiegel journalist who then proceded to criticise the McMedia-attitude that pervades the reporting about Iraq, German and USAian. I was waiting for some reation on this, but it didn't come. Honi soit qui mal y pense, however, I posit it didn't fit the mold that'd appeal to the claque, here.[1] And garydausz is disgusted with the conspiracy theories stating that the Americans have willfully distributed the virus in England. That there are no such conspiracy theories (except in his imagination) doesn't quell his anger in the least. Oh, there are such theories, echoed from the more purulent UK-media and discredited. Whil doing a quick scan through the usual suspects, 3 of 5 papers reported correctly, that one of the labs belonged to a company that was owned jointly by the US. Merck&Co. and the French Sanofi-Aventis. The others reported correctly that it belonged to US-based Merial Animal Health. Since it is an autonomous company that is true if somewhat. Construing some antiamericanism here is somewhat aus den Fingern gesaugt. I wonder what sources Dausz used as the basis for his remark. It's just amazing. Up till now, we at least dealt with real examples for anti-Americanism. Mostly rather debatable examples IMHO, but hey - at least there was something. Now, we're a step further: We're dealing with virtual anti-Americanism: anti-Americanism that *surely will happen* in the future. This handwringing about the iniquities of the German press to be expected has been a feature of this blog all along, I'm surprised you didn't notice. Com on, the is the Web. Petty bickering, character assassination, facts made up to suit the argument, invincible ignorance, prejudice along all available dimensions and some made up ones in addition, unconquorable stupidity, agendas worn proudly as fact inverting filters or fact evading blindfolds, barely disguised sexual inuendos, are all design features of the glory and beauty that is the Web[2]. Jörg [1] And now watch them stepdance about this. The argumentation will be cathegoric, such as "We cannot report on anything." or "So they once in a while get it right, so what, why should we bother." Fair and Balanced, I guess. [2] Thanks, Kent