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NiranV
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@Zoe If i could, i would. Trust me, i'm that kind of person who does something just for the sake of ruining their shit if their services are bad. When i heard about Poser HUDs being a thing i dropped everything to make the Poser happen immediately. I absolutely hate seeing people getting ripped off (i consider paying thousands of L$ for a HUD that poses you a rip off). As of right now i'm just a Viewer developer. My knowledge of atanomy and skills in Blender are far not enough to go beyond the occasional body edits i do for SL or other things. Making a human body (or any body for that matter) requires a good knowledge of both the program and body as well as some mediocre talented hands to get the job done. If i ever were to make a human body (which i highly doubt since i have little interest in human bodies to begin with) i'd make sure to fix all the issues i'm complaining about constantly. Starting with full mod permissions, freely accessible devkit (without having to sell your soul) and much lower price, much higher optimization and everything very lightly scripted (if at all). @Kirsten Looking good wasn't aimed at the body directly but rather at the overall package as a whole, i can't speak of the pricing as i don't know how much they cost but with the given information it was looking good. @Fionalein I'm grumpy because people like you make me. I run around mostly naked because there is little point in adding clothing on a dragon that has giant crystals protruding out of its head, neck, back and tail. I hate clipping and i hate outfits that simply don't fit the avatar even more, now try to add anything outside of piercings, arm/legwarmers and glasses to it that doesn't clip into the crystals. Regardless of whether i run around naked or not though is that popularity is an issue that is caused by users and partly by the creators. And clothing availability is based on popularity and availability of the devkit. If no one uses it, no one's gonna make stuff for it. If its hard or impossible to get the devkit for it, no one will make stuff for it. Bringing me back to the core issue, the user. If you don't use something, its not gonna get popular, if its not getting popular its not going to get clothing. So either you make your stuff compatible with a common system or you'll have to do a lot of advertisement and a really good reason for people to switch. Seeing as people see more polygons as undeniably better at all times, optimizing your content would mean people will scream at you because their precious polygons are gone which must mean it looks worse, even if you cant see the difference. A lot of the issues come from the mindset of customers. In a user-created world, issues almost always fall back to the users themselves, because everything is created by them.
The body being 15k triangles is pretty good. That's really good optimized, although the hands and feets weighting in at 63k alone is quite heavy, there's still some work to do there, i'd start by not bundling hands and feet together and rather making them a "pick-one" scenario where you attach/detach only the one you like. That alone would save a tremendous amount of triangles. Further she could make use of Bento to offer the "styles" of feet as animation override, given that the styles are things like normal, standing on tip toes etc. Anything else would fall under the pick-one scenario anyway. To summarize this, there's still a bit to go but this is definitely the right way to go and other creators like Maitreya should definitely have a look at this example how to do it.
And it starts a new. One side saying look at AAA titles, the other saying "but SL is not an AAA game and created by its residents". VRChat is created by its residents too and brings a lot more optimization to the table than SL does, funny fact that. Also you do not need to be a professional to optimize your content. I've made meshes in the past too and i'm a total noob at doing so but even i have watched out for the most important thing: optimization. Optimization is not a super secret oath, it doesn't require you to sacrifice your first born and it definitely does not require you to be a professional at all. Even first-timers can immediately optimize their content by simply researching the absolute bare minimum of information required to do. Everyone, absolutely everyone should know without looking it up that rendering more of anything always requires more resources, its a simple logical rule and with that and only that in mind you should already know what to do to optimize your stuff: Do less. Do as little as possible. Don't do it if you can avoid it. Does your necklace really need 5000 polygons for that single link? It doesn't. Everyone with common sense should know that and knowing that i cannot understand how the current situation can even exist unless they are doing it on purpose or are outright stupid (Spoiler: they are, given that they believe making things no mod prevents copybotting and no matter of logical or technical explanation makes them change their beliefs). Some people are simply stupid, ignorant and don't care, its as simple as that, there is no denying it and there is no talking around it. I've already talked to a couple creators and they have proven it in the very first 2 sentences that reason and logic doesn't work on them, i doubt it's much different with most of the other big creators sadly. Also lets address the elephant in the room here. One thing keeps coming up every single time this type of discussion starts and it basically just shows how stupid and ignorant some people are about this topic even without being one of these big creators. More polygons is NOT always better. As others have said, finding the balance between performance and quantity is key to optimization and is basically the only "hard" part since there is no rule or even rough estimate what's good and what isn't. You need some common sense and some imagination to figure out what is and what isn't. Regardless though it is a fact that adding more polygons has diminishing returns when it comes to improved visual quality. Every time you double the amount of polygons (subdivide actually doubles, triples, quadruples or possibly more depending on what you are subdividing and how subdivide is being executed) you do not necessarily double the visual improvement and with each and every additional subdivide you are exponentially increasing the load while exponentially decreasing the visual gain. Generally speaking a single whole-object subdivide is already too much, doing parts selectively is a whole different thing though but here again i'd suggest using the cut/knife tools to A: keep the possibly nice topology you made and B: have much bigger control over the polygon count and maximize the increase in visual quality. Also there's random stuff being thrown around here like: "Have you ever wondered why the most popular downloads for almost all modable games are body replacers? Have you ever looked at the ugly faces in games of Rockstar or Bethesda games?" As avid body-replacer user in many games, not just Skyrim or Fallout (which are the most common and well known examples) i can totally and fully guarantee you that body replacers only serve a singular main purpose and that's adding nudity. Secondary effects are obviously fixing possibly bad rigging, clipping, texture issues and so on and so forth. Especially in games like Skyrim there is absolutely no need for body replacers other than nudity because both as male and female character you'll be running around in full covering armor at all times, why do you need a vagina or nipples or even nudity on the body? Of course for nudity, sex, fetishes and the whole lot of other pervy stuff. Pulling body replacers up as argument here is really weak, it's not even an excuse anymore. Saying "i'm not a professional", "this isn't AAA" and even saying "i don't know any better" is also really, REALLY weak. You are saying that you are offering a huge product for years to come and reiterate on it several times and you never ever had the time to come up with common sense and basic knowledge anyone wanting to create serious content in any platform, be it SL or anything else, can easily get in mere minutes and is readily available all over the internet? Excuses. You simply don't care, you don't want to care, you just want to bitch about SL running like shit when its your own goddamn fault. Every single creator has the responsibility to make sure their content is in a good shape. LL is partly at fault for not giving incentives either but adding them is only an incentive, not a rule and adding restrictions won't help either, people will find ways around it, they always have and they always will. Kinda sad to see that a topic that should by now consist solely of agreement that the current state is bad and that content needs to be optimized, with discussion on how to best tackle this and encourage said optimizations still hasn't gone past the point of some select idiots acting like idiots being ignorant and attacking people who bring up good suggestions repeat the facts to these idiots over and over. We should be past this already.
@Fionalein Captain Obvious. I was asking her, i want her to say that she's pissed that i'm pissed having to explain quite a simple task for the (now) probably 1000th time. I want her to tell me that i cannot vent on a blog, that is on top of that my own blog and that i should rather yell at you when you come asking for help inworld because that would be the other option. But rather than people actually trying to understand whats going on they are just quick at pointing at people. Who even said she was meant with the headline? Why did she even felt talked to, wasn't the whole point of the blogpost that i'm sick of having to explain it and that's the reason i made the blogpost in the first place? So people don't have to ask anymore? Given they'd read it. What even is the matter, she obviously figured out how to find the guide in the first place, thats more than 99% of the rest which is what i'm saying in the very blogpost she's apparently pissed at. Nowadays you can't even point out a thing anymore, you can't even say anymore how shit something really is, without some people lurking around the corner to point fingers at you. That's what you're doing here Fiona. You're literally just sitting there waiting for another post mentioning me or my Viewer to take a shit on it because you think i'm the bad guy because i have the balls to tell you what kind of shit person you are.
@Caitlin Gosh what's your problem?
@everyone The endless conundrum whether i should do this or not... I did it because people wanted it and it was literally a 10 second number change that doesn't impact the Viewer in any way and doesn't add any bloat and fits into what the Viewer is aimed at. I told people that its quite pointless but some peeps were like "but more pixels!" but what do you need to pixels for? "More pixels!". Yea well that's fine and all but what for, 4K + FXAA is perfectly fine. "But i already run the Viewer at 4K natively, it looks like trash." Wait what how do you run it at 4K and it looks like shit. You are essentially seeing what we see when we take a 4K shot and downscale it to fit our 1080p screen. Even worse, i use a huge 40" TV screen, this thing has a crazy bad pixel density, i can count every single pixel thats how huge they are and you are telling me seriously that your what is it, maybe 27" PC monitor which automatically already has a smaller pixel density and thus less aliased image if you are using the same 1080p resolution as me, looks worse even when on 4K which is easily double the pixel amount in the same space? How the hell does that even work?! I mean if you are not satisfied with double the resolution on a smaller area then honestly you'll never be satisfied with no resolution. Heck if anything i should complain, my TV is freaking huge, i can count every single pixel on screen, imagine how bad my aliasing is when i turn off FXAA. When i take a picture at 4K and scale it down to 1080p its perfectly smooth and i can tell because i can count every single pixel, if there was aliasing ANYWHERE i'd immediately see it. "BUT MUH PIXELS!". Yea well i guess your pixels. And then i unlocked the resolution limit and everyone started complaining. WHY?! YOU wanted it, first you complain that you can't take pictures at resolutions higher than 6K and now you're complaining that i did change it and allow you to take snapshots up to 12K? WTH. Honestly i don't get it, no matter what you do, people will always complain, every time... and people are seriously still wondering why i "seem" to be ignoring most people's feedback. Like... THIS is why.
Have you tried asking? You certainly haven't asked me yet. Whats the issue with navigation?
@NimueG I checked the blog link just to make sure, works fine for me too. @. Yes, the Viewer is opensource and anyone can continue it. Will anyone continue is a whole different question and what will they do with the Viewer is something entirely different too. Maybe someone who is a better programmer than me picks it up and does all the things i couldn't do. Maybe he won't because he doesn't want to invest any time and just keeps it alive and working. Maybe someone like me, who has no idea about coding comes around and does nothing for the first months, maybe he gives up because he can't figure it out or maybe he starts maintaining the Viewer after a while. Who knows. Remember that every Viewer has its own special character. Switching the lead also means switching out priorities, plans and ideals. Someone else might think that most of the Viewer is useless, throws everything out that made the Viewer what it is and adds things he thinks are useful. My biggest fear would be that someone just makes another Firestorm copy out of it. @Fionalein Not sure how often this was said already but all controls can be fully customized in Preferences - Keybinds. IN-Viewer. No need to edit the XML file (which you can still do, its just a different format now but still as easily editable as before). No one is forced to anything, you've got options. You can add binds, you can rebind them, you can remove them, you can do whatever you want, heck you can scatter your movement keys all over your keyboard, you could make the control scheme an orchestrated symphony of button pressing and use it to play a music instrument while moving inside Second Life to the music you are playing. @JordanRizzo Well yes, there are always people who will attempt to help but my problem is less the fact that someone doesn't know about something and attempts to help in any way possible, my problem is that this person might be telling you inadvisable things. Which is why i used the Firestorm Gateway example. In the gateway helpers told someone who asked for movement help that they should use the onscreen controls. I IMMEDIATELY intervened and wrote the newbie an IM, explaining him that there are AWSD and Arrow Key controls depending on what he prefers, the onscreen controls are really just a fallback not meant to be used at all times. When the newbie was gone, i asked the helper why he told him to use the onscreen controls instead of telling him about proper controls first and then working down from there to whatever is more comfortable to the user. The answer was "because it works for me". This "because it works for me" is exactly the mentality i don't support, don't tell other help-searching users bad practises just because they work for you, start at the very top, work down from there, if the best doesn't work for him, fall back to the alternative, if that doesn't work, fall back to the fallback option, if that doesn't work, attempt to find a solution that works, don't start at the fallback option, this kind of teaching is the reason people still ask me today how i record my videos and why my videos don't show any onscreen camera controls and why my camera movements are much smoother, i learned to use the camera controls from the get go and never bothered with the onscreen camera controls unlike most people today who never get told about the camera controls because teachers teach their bad practises rather than attempting to teach the best before the rest. Improving Second Life is much more than just, changing the UI and adding some features and yelling at people for bad optimization, improving Second Life also means improving the users and their experience. Teaching people building, proper movement and camera controls is just as important to improve Second Life as a whole. @Lone Dubratt Heartwarming, a bit over the top maybe but heartwarming nonetheless. How much impact i really had is up in the stars, no one knows, we'd only know if i never had a Viewer. Regardless of how much impact i had i try to offer something, as you describe it: shows what SL could be, it could be far far more than what i'm showing but what i'm showing is like scratching on the surface of what was possible if LL really wanted to take some steps into the future. I'm just trying to nudge them as far as i can towards trying more and at least sometimes it seemed to have had an effect. Snapshot window improvements are coming (someday), rebindable keys are coming soon, custom camera presets are coming soon, the poser will be coming (someday), complexity rework, all features that my Viewer had for years, features i've been attempting to make LL consider adding. I just wish they would listen more when it comes to graphics improvements...
@Mr Miffed I didn't say you accused me. English is a really unprecise language when it comes to pinpointing who you're talking to over the internet, especially when you can mean anything from you (the person directly in front of you), you (the other person you may be pointing at), you (your group or a group of any size), you (no one specifically like it was meant in this case) or you (as in everyone). Its quite hard for me to understand how people don't misunderstand each other every second sentence. I have no control over what Wagner does and i don't know what the deleted comment said but i'd assume that its quite a douche move to come here and basically piss on my grave with something like that, so i'd assume it was probably deserved, i mean i do get my comments removed on forums too when i go asshole mode on someone. I know what the case was with Kirsten and i never said (or well meant, maybe it sounded like it) that Kirstens Viewer was a copy of another Viewer, i said the "maintenance" version that later came after he gave up on it were just a copy of Cool VL Viewer, not the actual Viewer while it was still actively developed. You mention the Viewer mods, yes, i was extremely active at that time and did what i could which was limited to XML only at that time. I supported him a lot, reporting bugs, finding issues, making suggestions for improvements some of which he added and i even made the already mentioned UI changes quite a good chunk of which Kirsten btw added to the Viewer. Also back then i was quite a different person, i was a lot younger and much more annoying for no reason. There is no point in asking the community to volunteer for support. Firestorm is the reason i do not want to do this. I've spend a good month on their newbie area, watching the helpers/supporters do their job. They do a terrible job in my book. They teach people the same laziness they are being teached and they are being teached a lot, i've visited several of their 45 minute long "lessons" to teach them about the Viewer and how and where to find options and stuff. When they had to explain for 45 minutes how to use the backup settings in Firestorm which was so simple that it was totally obvious the moment you see it, i was quite shocked. I swore that i'd never want to do the same thing. I don't want my users to tell outdated stuff, i don't want to have them spread misinformation (and theres already way too much around), which is why i'm doing this personally, besides, teaching a couple volunteers the ins and outs of the Viewer would take months, if not years and that wouldn't even begin to scratch the surface, it would be a constant maintenance work to keep them updated with what i do and what i change so these people know what is intended or what isn't, in the end its the same or more work than simply doing it directly myself which is much faster and more efficient to do. Most people don't even read the patch notes that i put together, i could literally write shit into the changelogs and no one would give a damn, i can't expect people to give well informed, up-to-date information about an everchanging Viewer. A forum didn't work out well, i wouldn't get notifications, so i wouldn't see issues when they arised unless i looked hard enough, leaving the impression that there was no support available at all. I scoot around the grid when i have to, when i want to see an issue on my end to investigate what the issue is, pictures and sometimes even videos of users aren't particularly descriptive so i'll have to investigate them on my own and waiting 2 hours between each replies is too much wasted time for me so i'm not really making it more complicated i'm actually making as simple and direct as possible, you tell me what the issue is and i'll look into it and fix it or help you. Also, there is Discord now, people can chat there with others, share pictures, ask for help and whenever i got time i can check there easily and help, it also offers a lot of QoL like pasting pictures/videos directly and all those fancy shenanigans you could possibly ask for, heck i could go into a voice channel with someone and have them live stream the viewer and show me the issue live. If with easier you mean writing a huge wiki like Firestorm did that the support just links to whenever someone comes up with an issue again, no thanks. Same story with teaching people, i'd be maintaining the wiki all day, changing all kinds of stuff everywhere whenever i make changes.
@bet The short version is, even if i wanted, i couldn't. You need a MacOS device to compile for MacOS. I don't have one and i'm hardly in a spot i could afford a Mac even if i could see past Apple's crazy prices. @Mr Miffed Here's the big difference. I made this Viewer for 8 years because i liked doing so, i enjoy making Viewers and giving out something people like. I believe that certain things in life should be free for anyone, like mods for games should never cost money, so shouldn't Viewers. When Kirsten started doing his kickstarter i was mad at him because he wanted money for something that has always been free and should always remain free but in hindsight i came to realize that he did that to be able to continue doing what he did. The mere idea of requesting money for something like this made me insanely mad. But seeing myself being in the same situation now i kinda see the irony of me saying this. Unlike Kirsten however i didn't want to preemtively collect money (with the off chance that i could possibly just poof with the money) i wanted something that allows people to choose for themselves how much my work is worth to them each and every month, this would give people the control to say "oh fuck this he didn't do shit this month, he aint getting money from me!", if they dont like what i do they can simply choose not to pay, there are no consequences other than the Viewer someday possibly vanishing. Aside from that i'm not asking people to pay me a well paid full-time job, although that would be super cool and technically easy to achieve if more people simply paid less (having 2000 people pay a single dollar, which alone is nothing but alltogether is a huge sum) thus making it easier for everyone to support the viewer and less punishing if a few people jump off the train... i'm asking people to support the viewer enough to keep me working on the Viewer, otherwise as others have already stated, i could just do the same thing everyone does and get a job. But that would cut a big 8-10 hour hole into my available time and i'm sorry to say this but i'd rather give up the Viewer than friends and family which need a lot of attention and are much more important. Between sleeping and working there would be less than ~4 hours a day (i'm a long sleeper, 10 hours is absolutely minimum for me to not be a zombie all day) which aren't counting misc needs, like eating/drinking (making the food), showering, possibly go shopping so i can actually make food, visit family and/or go out with them because even if i don't try to show it i do value my family. Now add a bunch of friends to the mix who want to do something every day and your time is gone before you even started. And sure you could call me a leecher, i've always felt bad for it, its part of what makes me so depressive and its the reason i sometimes just want to drop everything, get a job so i can pay off all the "depths" that i think i made with my family since my birth and be done with it, as long as my conscience stops digging holes into me like a swiss cheese but then i'd be giving up my dreams and my life, i'd become a mindless drone like so many people out there, live to work, work to live, the only rest is death. But whenever i had spare money i supported my parents, its not that i just take and don't give, i simply don't have anything to give. Also, believe me when i say i wish i didn't have to use Patreon, doing so already makes me feel like a bad person because (although differently in implementation than Kirsten) i feel just as bad as that (oh the irony). A job is the last resort option, its the fallback in case everything fails, i've investigated a lot of options really but none of them are viable, donations are alone are far and few between, a job takes all my time and doing nothing will be the end of the Viewer. Patreon really seems like the only option to "fund" the Viewer (other than getting a job which cuts into my time) while also allowing people to support what i do. Btw, Kirstens Viewer wasn't really further developed, it was just in maintenance mode, meaning it was literally just a copy from another Viewer (Cool VL Viewer if i remember correctly) and nothing aside from merging in LL code to keep the Viewer from totally breaking was done. Is that what you want for Black Dragon? Maintenance mode, with updates every few months that break half the Viewer in spectacular ways and no one around to help you or fix these issues? Seeing how adding a "remember username" toggle to the login screen broke basically my entire login screen when i merged LL's latest code, i'd give the Viewer 2 months tops before you wouldn't be able to login anymore (infact this very bug caused you to be unable to login unless you already used the Viewer previously) because something i don't have time to investigate and fix for hours is being introduced into the Viewer doing its thing... and what about all the users? What about all the people who need help? I spend a good hour every day at least to help people, answer their questions and investigate their issues (teleporting to them, looking at broken stuff, figuring out why its broken and how to fix it), they would be headless chicken running around in circles, the group isn't much help, how am others supposed to help other users if they don't know it better? Questions and issues would stack as high as skyscrapers and with no one to help they would slowly leave the Viewer, bleeding it out until it vanishes completely. @0xc0ffea I did. It was around 2008-2011 when i had far less people to deal with, i'd come home, log into SL and attempt to figure out LSL scripting all day, which at the time i just discovered for myself, until i went to bed again. At that time i already came home late at 6PM and had to go to bed a couple hours later already to wake up at 6 AM again. Except that when i came home i was completely drained of any euphoria and energy, i just wanted to chill just so i could reflect in bed about how i wasted my free time doing nothing even though i wanted to do so much. @Fionalein A: It's my Viewer, obviously i do what i want. All Viewers do this, if they do something you wanted then its something they wanted as well otherwise they wouldn't have done it. B: I don't ignore feedback. I just don't get much usable feedback outside of "add X Firestorm feature" and/or "make this Viewer another Firestorm". The point of Black Dragon is not being Firestorm otherwise i could just contribute to Firestorm or make a clone of it. C: Linux is dead, not even LL supports it anymore and Mac (just like Linux) requires you to have the OS installed or a machine with it installed. Do you want me to waste potentially your Patreon money that you gave me to continue working on the Viewer on an overpriced, glorified laptop so i can POSSIBLY (i dont know how) compile the Viewer for a machine that per definition isn't made for an application that basically paints "You need better hardware" (although thats not true) on its flag? I'm pretty PRETTY sure you'd be mad as fuck if i spent 1-2 grand on a Mac, money i could have used to keep working on the Viewer. So i'd assume that it is in the best interest for us all that i don't compile for Mac/Linux and leave that to potentially helpful people who do have Linux or Mac and the knowledge to compile the Viewer for me/you.
@camilia I already brought this idea up, it was denied as well. No matter what i bring up, no matter how much locks and safety guards i put into this, LL won't allow me to pose others unless they can see it and have full control over it, including stopping you from doing so at any given time. Even if i were to add a "request posing permission" dialog only people on Black Dragon would be able to receive it and only people on BD would be able to decline/stop it. This could be abused as "Viewer detection" feature to see who's using BD and who isn't, its something that in the past has caused a lot of drama and had to be removed and put a stop to by LL.
Alpha sorting, pixelated shadows and differing lighting around the belly coming in 3... 2... 1...
@KT An export to bvh is what Linden Labs wants instead of direct live posing "so people have at least something to share them" by doing so however they basically delayed the poser over a year now and there is no end in sight, also i'm against a BVH export, if anything i want an ANIM export and even that i'm against because discussions with LL have shown that if i added an export i'd have to gimp the poser even more by forcing it into T pose which essentially ruins the purpose of the Poser, that or i allow you to change a pose but you cannot save it at all (not even locally as XML file like it is right now unless i'd prevent export when importing XML files since there is no way to differentiate between modded and custom created poses) which is essentially worse than what we have right now. @camilla @vwfan I doubt its going to change, Oz has made his reasoning very clear, we are not going to get posing others unless others can see and stop you from doing it at any time. I cannot do so without server support which LL denies, essentially they are cornering me and gimping the Poser because they fear that without the ability to see and stop others from posing you, people would run rampant and abuse the Poser to make you show certain poses that could be offensive or bannable, this could potentially be abused to use the Report Abuse feature. In short they are saying "With human's nature we can't have nice things" ---- I'm honestly thinking of giving a shit about what LL says and simply do what i think is right and enable posing others, regardless of what LL does i don't want the poser to be held back anymore and gimped because of LL's stupid fears.
The ability for your pose to be seen by others. Not possible thanks to LL denying me the needed server sync, i dont know of any way to synchronize this between servers. A way to pose other people via permissions system. Not allowed. LL clearly said i am not allowed to enable posing others, regardless of permissions (which i suggested). Their reason for this is other people not being able to see them being posed could be abused which... is because LL denies me server side sync, see first part. Neither of these features were not implemented due to being bloaty, in fact my local build allows posing others... but Linden Labs. Good thing you remind me, i was going to add a way to load rotations, position and/or scales seperately. Will most likely be in the next update.
@Tankgirl How about you show us something you've been building the past 7 years alone and we spit on it. Also if i paid Hamlet for covering my Viewer, why haven't i paid you to shut up yet?
You'd only want to switch to Unity if you want less modularity, more memory hogging and even less performance. Unity is by far the worst engine to select (besides the fact that hammering any engine into SL is not going to do anything). Unity's performance is generally bad, its memory footprint by default is absolutely off the charts and unless you know how to rewrite pretty much everything Unity offers you an libraries, shaders, solutions and so on you're just going to grind performance to a halt without gaining anything but even more memory usage for no reason. Second Life may run bad at times but that is not because Second Life in itself is necessarily bad everywhere. Sure SL carries a lot of old code around, does quite a few things strangely (due to compatibility) and because of that can't make effective use of new things even if LL wanted to but the way SL runs right now is by far better than it could be if transplanted to any other engine, no matter which. SL is highly complex and does a lot of things at the same time at all times and the only way to improve performance in these regards would be optimizing these operations, offloading them into seperate threads where possible (multithreading) and of course the biggest impact, optimizing content in SL which involves avoiding stuff that has a high impact or using it sparingly. I don't see why this "switching engines" nonsense comes up over and over, people simply have a totally wrong understanding how that works, switching the engine doesn't just magically fix problems, especially not performance and especially not for SL, in any case it would be way worse, more bugs, more crashes, stability would drop to zero, performance would be terribad and system resources would be wasted to produce a broken world just because you stuffed SL into a new engine without looking at the actual impact of such a crazy decision.
Amazing how some people here are completely oblivious to the utter truth. @Jorge No. I'm a furry i have nothing to do with human avatars at all, infact i hate human avatars. Me saying that this is a decently optimized body comes close to a cataclysmic world ending event. It's "the stars align" rare. @Elisha Why are you even wasting your time commenting here if you are so completely ignorant to any news be it good or bad. I'm trying to wake people up so we all can have a possibly better running Second Life, i don't understand why you would want to sabotage it like that, you are sabotaging SL, you are sabotaging yourself. @TDGunner Are you mentally challenged? Is your brain capacity really so low that you can't take this picture as template, example and use it to understand that other bodies can be optimized without looking bad? Just because this body looks like a fucking terminator body (and yes i don't like terminator bodies either) doesn't mean it can't look normal, it's just a goddamn fucking example, infact a normal shape body could be even more optimized because it doesn't need all these super abs. Some people really shouldn't be allowed to be on the internet, you are one of those. ---- @Phillip A normal high quality texture usage woul be 3 diffuse (lower body, upper body, extras (head, neck, eyes, tongue, hands possibly) + 3 specular and 3 normal maps, using 1024x1024 (4mb texture memory) for all of them would mean we'd end up with around 36mb texture memory, that is extremely low and absolutely fine. Yes it could be less since we're not counting clothes yet but its a decently low start, the specular map could possibly be reduced to 512x512 without any quality loss, this alone would save us easily 9mb total. Also note that textures are easier to handle for the Viewer than millions of polygons that need transformation, deform, shadow calculation and so on, i'd rather take a bit texture usage than half a million polygons more.
@Candy68 What has this build being built with mesh to do with the fact that there are lots of complaining about bad mesh practises and content optimization? Mesh != bad.
This. THIS is exactly what i'm talking about. I went there to see it myself and i was getting 40 FPS minimum everywhere i went, deferred, shadows, ssao, volumetric lighting, ssr, everything on and with an almost 9 year old AMD FX now. That is pretty respectable. The place also looks very nice and even with quite a bunch of animesh around i've never seen my framerate hitch at all. I've made some quick pictures there too and checked wireframe as well. The place doesn't look like any of the latest triple A titles but it really doesn't have to. It looks quite nice and unlike most of SL doesn't look like 2007 garbage cobbled together. The lighing is decent, lots of material usage, the texture usage was decently low and it was perfectly used to mask all the super low poly models around. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/487540359925334028/620299635293945877/unknown.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/487540359925334028/620300088236965898/unknown.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/487540359925334028/620300517209538590/unknown.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/487540359925334028/620300895787417630/unknown.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/487540359925334028/620302626793455622/unknown.png Wireframe: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/487540359925334028/620301327695609866/unknown.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/487540359925334028/620302703196635167/unknown.png I'm quite happy with what i saw and i wish this would be more common. SL could be so much faster and look nicer too.
I can only support what Penny says. I'm still using an 8 year old CPU, an old AMD FX 6200. I've been building my Viewer practically since i got that CPU and i've been nothing but taxing my CPU to the max every day and its still running. I can run SL with 60+ FPS if the place is good and the mentioned 30 FPS with nice graphics are easily optainable if the place shows optimization. The only thing newer on my PC is my GPU, now a 1060 was previously a 670 (also ~8 years old almost) sadly got fried when we had a power takeout and my PSU broke, the PSU took my GPU with it. My videos more than show that what Penny says is absolutely realistic. The only thing really important for SL is the CPU, all you need is a CPU with around 3ghz and 4 cores (intel would be better). The GPU can be basically anything that can run Deferred, even a GTX 460 (i used it while i waited for my 1060) can easily run SL with all the fancies on and still get 30 FPS easily. Prior to my AMD FX i had an AMD Phenom X4 for years with exactly the same performance as i get with my FX today. SL really isn't that demanding if people just stopped wasting our resources. See the videos here: https://www.youtube.com/user/NiranV/videos
@amandamagick I'm sorry but it won't ever be available for Mac unless someone does it for me. @Igor Romanov I highly doubt that Alchemy looks like that. Infact i know Drake and from what i heard none of the graphical changes he did so far have been in an official release meaning Alchemy still looks like the plain old LL Viewer. But then again most of the pictures aren't particulary telling to what makes Black Dragon great. Which is the reason i usually stay with my own pictures because i know i don't edit them (at all) and i try to use as many unique features as possible (and often not only just subtle but actually visible) to truly show what Black Dragon can do. I agreed with Wagner however that he should show other people's images (specifically human ones) so people don't get the impression that the Viewer is for furries only or only makes furries look good. While it can make everything look it certainly does make furries look much better in comparison to humans which see much less improvement as they usually use less of the unique features of Black Dragon, they would require a whole lighting change to look fundamentally different. I'm not saying that these human pictures are not good but sadly i often don't see much difference in them myself compared to other pictures taken with Firestorm because again they often don't make much use of all the fancy new graphical features which leaves them with only the subtle improvements in SSAO, Shadows, Depth of Field which don't stick out as obvious as say Screen Space Reflections or Volumetric Lighting, the first of which is more often used on furry avatars (dragons, lizards, kobolds or anything with scales profit a lot from this). I've always planned to make a comparison compendium at some point showing ALL the actual differences between other Viewers and Black Dragon but since things are constantly changing and stuff is getting tweaked all the time, i've held off on doing so, not to mention that doing actual real 1:1 comparison shots is extremely hard, it would require me to add in an option that sets the Viewer back into the original LL Viewer state to have an easy on/off comparison between them. It's something for... someday, until then people simply have to trust me when i say that almost everything has been touched and improved wherever i could improve something. @JK What would that work be? 7 years of work into the Viewer, most of which went into the UI, not the graphics, the graphics are one of the smallest parts of my work. @Blaise Glendevon I'm not resistant to suggestions i just basically don't get any and those few i get are rarely ever good. Typical suggestions are: "The UI is shit." and "Everything is so different." and of course the worst "Make it look like Firestorm." None of these are suggestions and none of these tell me anything at all. None except Firestorm, that one does tell me something but not much. I know how Firestorm looks like and i absolutely despise it because its a broken, half-assed, uncreative, patched-together UI that looks worse than the Official UI. Firestorm offers no consistency, no UI rules, no straight design (no design at all), the skins are all lifeless recolors and variations from each other. Yes they have lots of UI and stuff needs to get done in a timely manner but the quality takes a huge hit. It took me something like 5 years or so to just come up with a skin that offers a clean look and can be used everywhere, it took me 7 years counting to find a UI layout that i'm somewhat happy with, one that offers consistency, cleanliness and most important works technically everywhere. UI design isnt as easy as "just make it look like Firestorm", that's not a solution, Firestorm's UI is bad and i'm avoiding copying any other Viewer's UI, i want to find my own unique style, one that works because it works not because people were already used to it for almost a decade. Then again i don't expect to ever get some serious suggestions because people don't know what i want and what rules i design my UI in mind with. The vast majority of SL doesn't know UI's at all, they are in SL only and never really move outside of their tiny little comfort bubble. If they did they would have much less issue finding their way around my UI, or any UI for that matter. Every app is different, has a different UI, why does it work everywhere else just not in SL. It's the users, not the Viewer. I can switch to any Viewer any time without having issues finding my way around because to me they all are the same, they don't just look similar, they are. To me they don't differ much from my own Viewer but i don't start up a Viewer and are confused because the button has a different texture now. The people in SL simply need to learn to work their way through the UI in a plain and straight way one that doesn't immediately causes confusion when a button has moved from left to right and triggers the immediate "OH NO EVERYTHING IS DIFFERENT" thinking that will hinder you and possibly make you fail to understand completely. I can't help people but tell them that they have to be less ... "strict" with how they approach the UI, if they bail out the moment a button has moved from the first to the second row rather than simply zooming out a bit and looking at it from a bit further away... at the bigger picture... or more generally then i can't help them. By biggest issue with the UI design is that i don't want to break or dumb down the UI, i want to keep the UI intact, on a high quality level, accurate to the point and most importantly technically correct. I don't like using dumbed down names for features like "enable-this-to-do-exactly-this-and-that-feature". An example of this is the well known "Advanced Lighting Model" (previously known as Lighting & Shadows). Advanced Lighting Model is basically saying nothing, advanced lighting model, what does that even mean? what about the lighting is advanced, what does it do? Well it makes the lighting model advanced i suppose. It's correct technical name is Deferred Rendering. Deferred Rendering doesn't tell the normal user more than Advanced Lighting Model did but it offers the unique ability to google it because Deferred Rendering is something used in other 3D applications. Those who truly seek knowledge can actually find it, if they are willing to look for it that is. Similarly i spent a lot of time improving the little helper features, one such feature are tooltips, sadly something completely overlooked, many people either disable them or don't look at them but i spent days writing extensive tooltips for all features that clearly explain what these features do and even make notes about things you should keep in mind such as possible performance impact or problems they might cause or extra features that they might require. Once again if people just take the time to look at things, they would have much less issues figuring things out. Whenever i change a window i try to reduce space wasted and fill it with purpose, i try to make the UI as obvious and clear as possible given certain restrictions, sometimes i have to cut somewhere, icons rather than text due to space limitations for instance. The UI would look a lot more chaotic if i didn't spend as much time on the UI as i do, see Nirans Viewer's UI, it was all over the place, constantly changed to be even more all over the place and generally there was little thought put into the UI, all that mattered was cool looks and trial-and-error experiments. It's quite sad to see that so many people prefer the old chaotic UI of Nirans Viewer over the much cleaner and organized UI of Black Dragon. @Op You are a perfect example of the above. If you spent less time "having a hard time navigating around" and instead tried to find a solution you would have found out (either yourself or asked someone) that you can easily change all the controls to your liking with just a few clicks in Preferences - Keybindings. @Priscilla Sadly that is just how it is, Op basically just proved that people simply don't look (and not even hard, its right in the preferences window, its a whole extra tab just for it). They want everything to be perfectly set up for their personal use from the get go. It's sad to see that even though the solution to the problem at hand is basically right in their face most people fail at finding it and then fail again because they decline my help offers that i have basically scattered everywhere in the Viewer. From my name appearing in the friendlist, not to just look at it but to IM me if they need help (even tho most people who IM me think that they don't deserve my time. If i don't want to talk to people i wouldn't put my name into the friendlist at all times now wouldn't i?) to tooltips, to the viewer group, the discord chat, emails or simply finding me inworld. If people would just ask... @The Giving Tree Black Dragon is much more than just a photo tool. It's an every day Viewer like any other. I've been all over content creation of all kinds for years. The Viewer works no different than any other Viewer in that regards, the build tools are the same, the inventory is the same, the script window is the same, none of them differs to what LL offers in any meaningful way. It just doesn't offer special features other Viewers have, like copy-paste entire object parameters because... well those are their specialties just like other Viewers don't offer Black Dragon's special features. If you can't "work/create" with Black Dragon you can't work with any other Viewer other than Firestorm because of your own dependency on these extra QoL features.
The reasons for this running at only 30 FPS (worse even according to the choppiness) could be many, starting from the very beginning with the actual recording itself, unless this is recorded with NVidia Share (Shadowplay) i doubt its the original untouched framerate. Further we don't know the settings here, touching shadow resolution can quickly decimate your framerate for apparently no reason. Then there's the fact reshade was used here for the color correction and lens flare (color correction could have been done with the Viewer itself), reshade alone lowers the framerate just by being there. We don't know the system specs either and we don't know whether the Viewer might have been still downloading/decoing something. Sometime later today i'll go visit that place and have a look myself, with 8 year old hardware i'd expect 30 FPS there as well but we'll see, i've gotten surprisingly much FPS in several places i expected to be worse before.
@Candy68 We don't have a choice. SL is SL, it's completely unique. @David We don't get ruffled because A) no one ever sees them and B) no one dares to tell them in their face in SL... or do you walk up to a Linden and tell him his stuff is shit? I would. Not exactly like that but i'd tell him why its shit, if it is shit but then again i don't fear the Lindens, they are humans just like anyone else and if you talk to them they will either ignore you (because they are busy) or they will talk with you just like any other person.
@Galathir We tried the carrots for years. They didn't work and they will never work unless people are paid for it (which is the ultimate golden carrot). LL is not going to do that, the users are paying them for their content, since users don't care and buy everything they think look good, they are just "confirming" these bad content creators in what they do. This whole "don't buy what you don't like" doesn't work like that. A few hundred people not buying something doesn't change anything. That's exactly why this kind of topic is coming up over and over. People need to be reminded, people need to be educated and people need to be slapped in their face sometimes. We are getting nowhere derendering these people either, it's a workaround for an issue that needs fixing, something we have been doing for far too long. (LL is VERY guilty of this for many years) Also, we do have a way to limit memory limits for scripts, i use it for my own scripted AO (which is just one script and ~40kb). You should check the LSL wiki. I've been using this for years now so its nothing new either. I'd rather have less but better content than more but shittier content. I can only speak from a furry point of view but with meshes, furry avatars have not had any quality drop, infact the quality increased many times while at the same time reducing optimization across the board, this didn't hurt sales nor amount of content available. Infact, this whole "less content" thing is nonsense. Optimization doesn't mean less content, actually, it would mean MORE content, creators would be spending less time on their meshes as meshes would be simpler, less triangles means simpler rigging, less potential bogus vertices, faster upload, less upload cost and its only a one time thing. Seeing that most human mesh content has been created once and never actually updated (the CATWA head in particular hasn't been changed since it became Bento) further invalidating that "less content" statement. People simply don't understand that optimization doesn't mean "less" which immeddiately seems to ring all warning bells. Optimization simply means making more of the available resources and SL really doesn't have much resources available at all but way more than enough to make good looking content without completely murdering everyones framerate around for no reason. I've been complaining about this for years now because i've been using, making and visiting very optimized content many times already and there is simply no comparison to the usual junk we see. They look the same if not better and you can smack ten times more of them everywhere before you notice anything bad happening. This isn't wishful thinking this is simply a fact and a goal we should be working towards but with people showing simply no interest in doing so nothing will change, and the same people will simply continue complaining that LL should fix all their shit and make SL faster... or replace the engine or make SL2 or whatever. @Stuart I think you are just talking a whole lot of trash. First off i know from several people with high end machines that you aren't going to get 100FPS especially not with people around unless you are running a good Intel CPU, a decent GPU and have most if not almost everyone derendered and your settings lowered. And i can tell you i can't even get more than 30 FPS with people around and thats with 95% of them being jellydolled. There is absolutely no way you are getting 100 FPS with SL looking like a triple A title. You don't even know what "looking like triple A" entails. It's incredibly hard to get SL to look "triple A" outside of still pictures because the content in SL is simply not made for it. What stinks most however is that you think i "self professed" that "Graphics Expert" title. No i didn't. Infact i never ever even said i'm a graphics expert. That's just what everyone thinks because i'm the most vocal about graphics most of the time. I'm not a "Graphics Expert", just a "Graphics Fanatic". You don't need to be an "expert" to see that the vast majority of SL content is an unoptimized mess. Even worse is your believe that me saying "my stuff is so much more optimized than yours" is an ego thing. It is not. It's simply a matter of fact. When you educate yourself a bit more on how SL works and what's good for SL and what isn't (which really isn't that hard to do since most of these things should actually be quite obvious) and you spend some time applying this knowledge to reduce any impact you may or may not have on everyone around you, then you can say "you are more optimized than them" because that's simply a fact, the probability that whoever hears it didn't spend a single minute on even THINKING about optimizing their avatar is 99%. So no, it's not my ego, i'm just saying how it is, i've spent a couple hours exporting and combining textures, removing invisible body parts, making sure no body part uses two different textures which look identical (due to uploading multiple versions of it), making sure my scripts are reduced to an absolute minimum (like not wearing a whole arsenal of weapons when i'm not on a combat SIM or something), stuff like that. It's really not hard and most of it should be so obvious that you should know how it works. Heck, i even detailed and wrote down the process how i optimized my avatar in a blogpost (sadly i had to make it private because it includes ripping off textures from your avatar to combine/reduce them, which could be considered copybotting). ---- Optimization is no magic or some status or something to boast with, optimization is a process, in SL a very simple process, to reduce the resource usage to an absolute minimum without visual impact in best case and with minimal visual impact in worst case. You should be striving for it not call out people who do it as snobs.
@Galathir @Nara You just don't get it, don't you? It doesn't matter if SL is not a game, or a game experience. It doesn't matter what engine SL uses. This whole things about about the ignorance towards the absence of optimization in SL. Regardless of whether SL is a game or not, whether it uses Unreal or CryEngine or its own, doesn't matter. SL, like any other platform needs to employ some rules, some guidelines for optimization and this has to be burned into both the user and the creator's head. SL could run so much better for everyone, it could be so much less laggy both client and server side if any given content was more optimized. SIMs lagging like crazy because a bunch of avatars are on them? Guess what it's because they are heavily scripted with a whole bunch of unoptimized scripts wasting unnecessary CPU cycles of the server which could be used for more important things. The SIM almost dying every time someone teleports in? Guess what, you are wearing way too many heavily scripted attachments. Your Avatar taking 5 minutes to load? Guess what, it's because your avatar consists of pieces each of which are probably 5-20mb worth of data to download. If that's not bad enough, multiply it by the amount of avatars around. SL could be so much more by simply adding optimization to the equation. Optimization in content would free up resources, it would mean people have to download less, waste less time downloading, sacrifice less FPS, bloat memory less, lag the SIM less and all this while looking visually no different. Freeing up these resources would mean you gain them as available resources to use for MORE. If one tree kills your framerate like a hundred avatars, you're only going to put 1-2 of them down before you'll be unable to put any further down because your Viewer is dying, now replace this tree with one that looks identical but is optimized and takes 100 times less impact on your framerate, guess what you can now put a hundred or two more of them around before the same happens. This allows you to be more open and creative with your content in SL. Also your entire point of "LL offers us tools to limit what we want to render" is pretty much complete bogus. While LL offers us tools, these tools are useless. LL doesn't offer us derender and LL's complexity calculatios are a fucking joke, they mean nothing, you can't limit how much polygons you want to see, how much VRAM you allow per avatar, nothing of these, all you get is a slider for an arbitrary number that means nothing because it is inflated by harmless object features that are basically free to render, giving people the impression that their unoptimized crap is fine in comparison to people who put thought and time into their content. Besides, LL is NOT interested in offering you effective tools for performance tweaks and neither are they planning to punish bad content creation aside from their stupid LI which is basically another useless complexity calculation for when you rez things on the ground, making it unusable for objects attached to avatars.