This is Patrick Free's Typepad Profile.
Join Typepad and start following Patrick Free's activity
Join Now!
Already a member? Sign In
Patrick Free
Recent Activity
Knowing all that will Li Air batteries ever come for EVs ?
They are only missing the costs per KwH here.... That may be their only problem, but a big one for EVs.
Sounds great, and not far from Tesla PowerPacks 2 characteristics, with 222kWh vs 210kWh. But the up to 1000 Volts assumed to be in DC current is special for sure. Missing are the weight of these batteries an the actual size of the racks, and to understand what exactly they did to enable Marine certification (Ream special materials ?). Alos I understand this is for very large boats and not for little High Speed boats., like those using Torqeedo motors with BMW i3 or i8 battery packs. But there should be tons of great applications.
Makes a lot of sense for both I suppose. Good luck.
The higher voltage per cell, up to 6v, is for sure interesting. Main problem for me here, is why are they hiding the key figures ? Exp. Density in kWh/kg and kWh/Liter ? Supercapacitors promisses with ultra-fast charging and discharging and huge Cycles count, has made lots of people dreaming of them for EVs... But density has always been a massive issue so far, hence the hybrid SC/Battery approaches considered, but that seam to have been a lot more complex to tune that expected, hence were never really used in Production EVs yet. Not mentioning the pitiful EEESTOR "mirage" that disappointed so many EV dreamers like me. Bet we'll not dream of this new one before we get a LOT MORE PROVEN DETAILS. But for sure this is "interesting."
Huge promise of value here !!! "If these values of capacitance can be achieved in production, it could potentially see supercapacitors achieving energy densities of up to 180 Wh/kg...". That would be great but then question will be weather it retains the usual benefits of SuperCapacitors, means > 1 Million Cycles and # instant charge/discharge capabilitiy. Then they'll need to disclose the Wh/Liter, and the hazardeous conducts vs temperatures and chocs and fire and water ...etc , to make sure where this new EESTOR monster techno could fit.
Interesting to the least.... Look forwards to see this in a Long Range EV. Number of cycles looks shy with maxi 1000, unless this is at cell level and at pack level it could support more full charge/discharge cycles. So with one charge per day it could at least sustain, on the smaller battery packs, Tesla 8 years unlimited range battery warranty (Requiring # 3000 cycles in such extreme case). But I agree the larger the battery pack the least cycles will be used, so they could balance this limiting the usage to very large lon range EV battery packs if needed. For ex, in my use-case of typical 65km/day in Paris/France, moving tomorrow to a Tesla Model X v2 sharing future Roadster2 - 200kWh battery pack in say 2021, would allow me to charge no more than once per week, versus once every 4 to 5 days with my beloved Model X 100D today, means to one charge every week-end, while resting at home, on an easy to install and grid-friendly 7kW / 220V-32Amps charger. So this would require only 364 full charge/discharge cycles in 8Y in that case, round it to 400 cycles including all my longer vacations and week-end trips. So that could fit with their claimed 1000 cycles... Moving forwards key point will then be how this battery can sustain ULTRA-FAST charging or not. Say typical to-be Porsche 350kW/800V chargers, or next Gen Tesla Truck MegaChargers with modular up to 4 x 320kW to 4 x 400kW, across 4 pairs of very thick DC pins. Here again the larger the battery the easier it will be to sustain these extreme charging rates. Say same for current 100kWh pacs tapped at 1.2C by Tesla (100kWh pacs can charge at 120kW maxi), a new 200kWh pack made with these batteries would allow 240kW with exact same wearing on same techno. Hence Porsche 350kW charging would require to push only to 1.75C at 800V. Not necessarely a big deal .. ? Or if that future 200kWh EV could charge using 2 x future Tesla MegaCharger pairs of DC pins out of the 4 used by the new Tesla Semi truck, it would only require batteries to support 3.2C to 4C.... Which may start to be challenging if you also want to maintain Tesla 8 Years battery warranty with unlimited milleage. But may be not impossible with a new battery techno. Except here I just noticed they don't quote the number of Cs for these cycles, .... which may be worrying ? In any case we'll soon find out if any to-be long range EV vendor selects them ....
They are loosing everybody here.... So far we were expecting not to exceed 400Amps in order not to heat the cables beyond a level that could be easily cooled, and requiring too much thickness... Or even stay not much above 300A to allow to keep up with air cooling and lighter cables that human can manipulate. I was expecting CCS to go up to 1000V or even 1200V, per recent standardisation claims linked to HPC350, allowing Porsche 350kW to happen with even air cooling on the cables if they whish and accept to forget their 800V initial claim, ... to improve it (Re-lay of the battery required if they increase the voltage... Feasable only if planned properly for it). I don't see the point of trying to get to 450KW now on one DC channel, and do that with a 500Amps approach and only 900Volts. That does not seam optimal. Only justification may be to remain closer to the 800 Volts announced by Porsche for Mission E initially, so they may not need to re-layout the battery pack for more voltage. The Tesla Truck announcement with its MegaCharger port offering 4 x 2 high current DC pins clearly shows that next Tesla step will be "MODULARITY", means they will offer may be up to 1600kW but split accross up to 4 x 400kW, in 4 pairs of pins, the Long range 500Miles and 800kWh up to 1000kWh battery using the 4 pairs in one go to recharge 400Miles in 30mn. The next Gen cars being able to take only one pair or 2 pairs and recharge at up to 400kW or 800kW that way on the same Megacharger plugs. If they want a human Trucker to be able to manipulate the huge cable including the 4 x pairs of cables, they will need to be air cooled, hence not exceed 300-350 Amps per pair of cables. So bet tesla may go for up to 1200V ... If thy follow that path. Then if robotic arms are used it could be a different story of course. Wait and see more details on Tesla Megachargers. But this 450kW with 900V and 500Amps approach makes no sense for me at this stage. It will only confuse German partners who may just stop rolling any hypercharger fore they make up their mind... Good for Tesla again.
I look forwards to see the 1st one at least HPC150 level, as no car can use HPC350 today, and find a way to charge my Tesla Model X 100D there... Yet in Europe Tesla is not offering the Required CCS-Combo cable compatible with HPC150... Only a Type 2 (Non-Combo Minnekes, hence AC only and very limited Power as a result !!!). SoI look forward for more here !
That looks like the perfect battery for the EV of tomorrow with >350KW Ultra-Chargers, allowing 200KWH packs in less space than 100KWH today and almost the same weight...where is the trick ? Is the price prohibitive ? Why Tesla did not pick them if that perfect for EVs ?
Interesting, but as always with these very partial disclosures the devil is in the details... 300KWH battery giving 350km range may be Ok if it allows "supercharger" speed charging. If we take same 1.2C use by Tesla on their current best in class 100KWH EVs, allowing them to charge at up to 120KW, when SOC allows it. This would allow 360KW charges, very much same as what Porsche claims for its Mission E 800V future EVs at 350KW... Will that be an option here too ? Or will they go even further with 600KW chargers already presented in other heavy duty electric vehicles for ultra fast charging ?
Heavy vehicles / Bus charging.... at only 50KW up to 150KW, means nothing more than what's already available for much smaller Tesla long range EV cars ???? That does not sound right. So far the pilots for Electric Buses and lorries were arround # 600KW charging power. Which makes sense assuming >500KWH of batteries in such very big vehicles... This sounds like something cut short for may be fastly wearing batteries uncapable to charge at same " 1.2C rate as Tesla batteries...or what ?
Great public initiative again,.... But not sure why this 400Amp limitation to the creativity of the humans ? I understand serious cooling issues as the Amps increase, as well as cables requirements, and their impact on practicallity of charging for average humans manipulating the plugs. Understand that with usual cables, above 300A you need Liquid Cooling, not mentionning the section and the weight of the cables that are required and the plugs attached. Then 400A may be already kind of a challenge even with great liquid cooling... But why limit the creativity that way ? Every challenge can open the door to new breakthroughs.... When searchers look outside the box, why don't let them think about charging at up to 1000KW, battery and chargers, without boundaries ? Either way it comes and can be made safe, it should be acceptable. Understand that increasing the Voltage forever is not without safety challenges either.... Could searchers find better ways to move current than via copper wires + cooling of these wires ? No liquid, no plasma, no new things...could do better than wires ? Then you can have an automat move the cables and plugs instead of humans, which could then allow more weight and heat and many things, especially as you think at next step Autonomous cars charging. Not sure why limits are set up-front on one characteristic like Amps here. Seams they want to fund something already found by a US vendor, and not the other options that could compete with that.... For me they should better define the starting point as where Tesla is today (145KW chargers, and 120KW maxi effective charge at optimal SOC on Tesla best 100KWH 1.2C batteries, with 8 years unlimited Miles battery warranty) and then define the next challenging ultra fast charging standard expected, define safety standards in an open way (No possibility of manipulating humans enjuries, no explosions)) say 1000KW, then put the money and let creativity come out with multiple options and benchmark them on real cases.
500 AMPs....That is a lot !!! So far Porsche was teasing 350KW at 800V, headding to 437.5 AMPs that was already a great challenge for cable cooling... In the CCS standard they were pushing to 1000V that could have made 350KW with only 350 Amps that was even easier to cool. 500 Amps I had never heared about it... May be a peak statement or .... ?
Why do they need to wrap this with so many mysteries, generating so much frustration ? Porsche started by communicating on 800V Superchargers that could charge to 80% #92KWH Mission E batteries in <15mn, without giving details of the POWER of these chargers, nor the Amps so we can calculate the power.... Then they got the CCS standard extended and we figured out that this would mean up to 350KW DC SuperChargers, despite rest of VW group seams to favor a 150KW interim standard, that may be 400V or 800V, not sure. Still nobody has seen any Mission E prototype connected to that level of 350KW Supercharging power so we can see during how much time it does actually charge one car battery at real 350KW. Nor did they give any indication on the warranty of Mission E batteries, compared to Tesla current 8 Years with unlimited millage on Models S & X, for battery and drive train / electric motors. Nothing is impossible in that space but everything will mean trades off, and this lack of clarity seams that they have something bad to hide...Like if you actually charge any one car at 350KW its battery warranty may fall to 1 or 2 years only ? There is a trick here for sure, as they have yet no special battery techno that could support frequent up to 4C charge rates without wearing very fastly.
Still their quote is confusing "...a severe production shortfall of 100 kWh battery packs, which are made using new technologies on new production lines."... For me their Model S & X 100KWH battery packs are made in Tesla factories using Panasonic-Japan made original 18650 battery cells, and not yet their new tech 2170 cells to be manufactured in collaboration with Panasonic at Tesla Gigafactory-1 in Nevada. Elon came back and forth on this, 1st tweeting that all newly produced Tesla cars, including current Models S & X, would use the new 2170 cells only by year end 2017...Then he came back shortly after, saying there were no plans to use 2170 cells in current Model S & X (for now), which generated many interpretations on the Net. The cooling system, and the internal arrangement of the cells in the 100KWH packs are different from the lower size packs, but the cells - that are the main "Technology" in them - are expected same as before and not new tech.... This seams to mean they had a problem with the new cooling and organisation of the cells in 100KWH packs... Which would be very bad news.... Although it seams resolved now they restarted to ship them.
This will get revisited as batteries can accept more cycles. If the recent information that Tesla new 2170 cells, used in Model 3 and PowerWall2 and by year end in all other Model S & X cars too, can really support 2X more cycles than previous 18165 cells, thanks to Canadian led enhancements on electrolyte dopants plus coating, then we should see more openings for V2G. The fact that Tesla just allowed "Aggregation" for its Powerwall2, that is Residencial Battery-to-Grid feeding, controlled by the Grid, gives an indication that we may not be that far away to V2G on Tesla side at least. Just missing in my view is that all new Tesla cars announced with 21700 cells and this type of capabilities to get a reduced battery warranty compared to today Model S & X 8Y unlimited milleage battery warranty... May be reduced to 5Y unlimited or 100K Miles only.... Then my bet is they will open V2G for these models only.
Why will it NOT support the Porsche sponsored 800V 350KW ultra fast charging and will be limited to 150KW instead ? Why can't all VW Group adopt just one ultra-fast recharge standard ?
Superb ! Just I don't understand why it won't be enabled for Porsche best of breed 800V/350KW hyper fast charger ? Why not standardize all VW group on that best in class level so far ? Does not make sense to be limited at 150KW for such a great car !
35.8KWH is a great and far better number for sure... But with no Range Extender and no SuperFast / SuperCharger charging capability this car will remain limited to local commutes, and remain a very expensive option versus the small ICE cars that today dominate that market. Will Need to add >100KW Superfast charging capability (if not full Porsche 800V 350KW !), to start beat into the all purposes car replacement market where that level of pricing is more affordable in my view. Unless I missed something here...
This was a critical step to credibilize the German Car makers fight-back vs Tesla in the Long Range all-purposes EV space. Till they set a comparable or better SuperChargers network across Europe, no European would consider them as an alternative to Tesla. 400 location sites (hope with several plugs in each) is a decent number, but they need to put that on a map with committed dates on when it will be available, and explain how this will connect to the local Grid to really deliver up to 350KW of power safely, and which car could take any benefit of this level of power, available when... But this is a HUGE step forwards for sure.
50KW Fast Charging limit is a Deal Braker here. Sorry guys this will not work for an all purpose full EV sold at the expected price for a Jaguar SUV....
1000 cycles not acceptable in my view. With one charge per day, would make the battery last less then 3 years, versus >10Y expected by EV buyers. No way to have anything <3300 cycles in my car....
@FOERSOM : Are you Kidding a >2 Tons Panamera driven by a 100KW Electric motor in full EV mode.... Would be funny that Porsche publishes their 0 to 60M time in that mode. I guess 20 seconds ... at least. Means the little Renault will do a lot better than this > 100K€ Porsche, ending > €150K with usual Options incl VAT, at every red light stop ???? When the Tesla P100D will run 0 to 60M in 2.5s... Sorry this is NOT the Porsche way. This is only another non-sense Electric Turbo announced to kid stupid EU regulations. I put a deposit this summer on a Tesla Model X P100D, that costs a little more even after adding all required options here, I admit. But I Finished waiting for my beloved German Brands to wake up on real EVs for men. Sorry guys.
Seams with this new 33KWH Battery pack that BMW is getting a little more serious, at least on the i3 formfactor. Combined with its REX option that should make a great PHEV for people interested in that small and ugly formfactor. Now we need BMW to offer such 33KWH capacity, with Dual electric Motors totalling >200KW, in a real BMW car formfactor, say an X6/X5/X4/X3 in priority. Problem is to do this right and in a profitable way that could last for a while, they need to come out with a comparable "all electric" Drive train for their real Cars & SUVs, as they have made for the tiny i3, with a comparable non-Tracting Range extender trading less Range Anxiety with the REX against less all EV range and huge savings on battery costs, to get to comparable or lower prices as Tesla with a good PHEV... i3 will not cover that.