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Peter, Let's summarize. Despite the fact that Jordan's lecture has been heard by upwards of 200,000 people on both my program and Brannon Howse's program (which broadcasts on 50 terrestrial Christian radio stations), you maintain that because there's no way to objectively confirm that any of those 200,000 people are SBC (other than Brannon Howse himself) that Jordan Hall has arrogantly overstated his claim that 1000's of Southern Baptists will hear his lecture. Using that logic we must assume that God somehow miraculously shielded or maybe even raptured all of the Southern Baptists in order to prevent them from hearing Jordan's lecture despite the fact that they make up a significant percentage of those who listen to Christian talk radio. But hey, anything is possible and since no one can objectively demonstrate that the Southern Baptists, who faithfully listen to Christian talk radio, were actually listening or downloading my program and Brannon Howse's program we have no choice but to assume that none of them were listening, right? Truth be told, God could have beamed them up to the starship Enterprise and held them in cryotubes until the wave of interest in Jordan's lecture crested. Since, that is possible we must bend the knee to your "logic" and admit that we only know for sure that two Southern Baptists actually heard Jordan's lecture, you and Brannon Howse. Since your arguments are so "lucid" I feel compelled to ask a few follow up questions. Do you believe in Sasquatch, that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, that Elvis is still alive, that the U.S. Government is responsible for the 9/11 attack on the Twin Towers, that AIDS was created by the Bilderbergs, or that aliens crash landed in area 51? BTW, the reason why Brannon Howse played Jordan's lecture is BECAUSE he agrees with Jordan's critiques and wanted other SBC members to hear it. I should know because he contacted me asking how he could reach Jordan so that he could play Jordan's lecture on his radio program. Peter, I don't know what color the sky is on your planet. But back here on planet Earth it's blue. Unconquerable ignorance, indeed.
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Peter, You are suffering from what we in apologetic circles call, unconquerable ignorance. 1) Jordan was not being arrogant when he said these words, nor was ne being too big for his britches. 2) As I pointed out I have objective evidence that Jordan's speech has been heard by more than 46,000 people via my program alone. (How often are your lectures heard by so many?) 3) I also pointed out the fact that Jordan's speech was heard on Brannon Howse's radio program. Brannon's audience is larger than mine by a magnitude of 3 to 4 times. Keep in mind that Brannon broadcasts on over 50 terrestrial radio stations. Brannon himself IS a southern Baptist and his audience has a large southern Baptist representation. Between my program and Brannon's program, Jordan's speech has easily been heard 200,000 times. For you to insist that there is no way to prove that its been heard by "1000's of Southern Baptists" because there is no way to prove this SBC folk comprised those listeners is so absurd it defies it makes you look like a willful fool. Furthermore, this post of yours is nothing more than an Ad Hominem attack. You might want to watch this video and educate yourself about the fact that an Ad Hominem is not an argument. Peter, I would also point out this, the fact that THIS is the content of Jordan's speech that you've decided to take to task rather than deal with the substance of what Jordan said demonstrates to me 1) you are one biased and brooding individual and 2) you have no Biblical ability to overturn any of the core arguments that Jordan brought to bear in his speech. Otherwise, if you could you would. You can't so you're resorting to Ad Hominem. Lastly, If Jordan really is a nobody who preaches in no where whom 1,000's of Baptists aren't listening too then why on earth are you wasting your time? Your actions, which are intended to embarrass and attack Jordan's character rather than substantively address the issues that he brought up show that you consider Jordan to be a HUGE threat within the SBC. If it weren't true then you would never have been so foolish as to give him even more expose here on your blog.
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I just worked out the math via my traffic logs and the May 24th, 2013 episode of Fighting for the Faith, which featured Jordan's Downgrade speech has been downloaded 46,362 times. Granted, I don't know how many of them are Southern Baptists but my audience is very diverse. Also keep in mind that Brannon Howse's also featured Jordan's downgrade lecture and his audience, which does have a higher percentage of Southern Baptists than my own, is significantly larger than the audience of Fighting for the Faith. Based upon these figures I'd say it is safe to say that Jordan Hall's Downgrade speech has been heard by 10's of thousands of Southern Baptists.
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Nathan - Yes. The entire commentary is that good. It is one of the most comforting and Christ-Centered works I've ever read. I return to it often.
Toggle Commented Dec 2, 2012 on Who Gave Himself for Our Sins at Letter of Marque
Bob, Are you a Christian? The reason I ask is because you would have us believe that Mysticism is a good thing because of a study done on BUDDHIST monks. I think you are proving my point.
Steve, Who in your opinion, is the person in the church that has authority to exercise church discipline?
Akira, Your comments were very helpful. I think you and I are talking past each other and I blame myself for the breakdown in communication. I haven't fully built my case and made my case that this ultimately is a doctrinal problem NOT a personal preference problem. Your comments really brought to light the fact that we are both dealing with an entirely different set of presuppositions. I appreciate you sticking in there. Rather than continue to comment back and forth I am going to spend some time synthesizing my research and begin building a DOCTRINAL case that works from some very specific theses. Stay tuned. It may take me a few weeks to distill my research down into that form. Once I do, I would truly appreciate your comments and feedback.
Steven, Let me see if your comments make any sense at all. Qualified Leadership - If your assertion is correct then the reason why small group is having the problems that we saw in the email I posted is because they have a seminary trained pastor. So if they got rid of their seminary trained pastor then they'd be taught sound Biblical doctrine that isn't subjective. Does that make any sense to you? It doesn't make any sense to me. Subjectivity - Your thoughts make sense on this topic. "Boring" Doctrine" - Can you give me a practical way I can apply the doctrine of God's Omnipresence to my life?
Akira, I want to share part of an email that I received to day that I think makes the points I've been making and is a perfect example of the issues i've uncovered in my research. Here's the email... I am a member of a church whose pastor, before he retired, was big into Rick Warren and who introduced the small-group Bible study concept. I am glad he did because of friendships formed, but I have NOT been pleased with some of the "Bible studies" we did. We moved to the area just after the whole church [as many small groups as the staff could form, that is] did Rick Warren's 40 Days of Purpose, so we missed that, but people raved about how wonderful it was. A year later, we did 40 Days of Community. In between we did a few John Ortberg video series [AAUUGGGHHH!!]. Then our small group leader [actually with a Concordia teaching degree] resigned due to lack of time to prepare, and no one wanted to lead. I volunteered so as to keep the group going, subject to my being able to pick the studies. I went with Concordia studies so as to avoid the PDL-type stuff, which I didn't like but couldn't quite put my finger on why I didn't. Perhaps this is too much background! But I have not been comfortable, as a woman, leading the study, although perhaps I am the "most qualified" if you count 8 years of elementary parochial school! I think men should step up. But I had seen your demotivational posters and felt the same way, with lay-led small group Bible studies being, too often, pooling of ignorance. Even though there ARE "back of the book" answers, they don't always cover all the questions. We DO ask our pastors if we have questions, but we have to be aware that we're on the wrong track: if we think we "got it right," we don't ask. It seems small group studies are here to stay in our church, and that being the case, the best solution seems to be studies from CPH which presumably have all passed doctrinal review. It's bad enough to not have trained leaders, but worse are the choices that are too often popular ?Christian? authors who are "fun" and "relevant." I am at least trying to push for CPH studies in the groups I am in, but too often I get the response that they are boring. Joyce Meyer, Kay Arthur, Beth Moore, and others whose names I have forgotten are too popular with the touchy-feely women in our women's studies. There also is often talk of "God laid it on my heart to . . . " or "God told me that. . . . " I feel like I'm in a Community Christian Church! Oh, one more thing: I hear a lot of " [insert horrible situation here] is really difficult, but I know God has a plan for my life, so it will all work out." I feel [oops, bad word choice?] that Jeremiah 29:11 is as mis-used as the Prayer of Jabez. Wasn't the nation of Israel the subject of Jeremiah 29:11? We can learn from it that God cares for His people, but not that God has an exact plan for EACH person! I liked in the "think-along" episode that you talked about "getting it wrong" with The Plan if we miss our "vision," or however you worded it. The story of this small group is exactly the same stories I am hearing about the MAJORITY of small groups. Notice the lack of qualified leadership, the reliance on store bought curriculum, notice the subjectivity, notice the good Biblical content is deemed "boring". I could go on and on. What do you think is at the root of this epidemic?
Glenn, Here's nub of the problem. In many Purpose-Drive / Seeker-Driven churches the "Professional Pastor" has ceased to dispense the duties of the teaching office in the church. They've fallen in love with being CEO's (something Christ has neither called or authorized them to do). And they are now giving weekly self-help lectures to so-called "seekers" in order meet their felt needs. As a result, the duties of the teaching office in these churches are now the responsibility of untrained laymen in Home Study Groups. These home study leaders are doing the pastors job without being trained or qualified to do so. The reason this article is important is because it shows the seriousness and study required to publicly teach and interpret God's Word. How many people would be Home Study Group leaders if people understood that in order to meet the Biblical qualifications to teach the church that this was what was required of them?
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Jan 10, 2010