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PreacherDJ
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Whether or not Joe Wilson was "unbelievably rude" has nothing to do with the accuracy of his statement.
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memberofKCFreeThinkers.org: My God didn't come from anywhere. He has always been. Everything else has a beginning.
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Something interesting I saw today: "Atheism: The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."
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KCFreeThinkers.org and memberofKCFreeThinkers.org, My question was addressed to Susan, who self-identifies as a Christian. The question would not make sense to either of you because the basis of the question has not been established. So your response to it is irrelevant.
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Susan, I'm finding it hard to be on this site enough to have good dialog. I apologize. I had asked you a question before with the intention of following up, and never did. Regarding your post yesterday about theistic evolution, I think there are two crucial questions to ask - if literal Biblical creationism is not true and macro-evolution is true, where did sin come from and where did death come from? According to evolution, death is a necessary component - survival of the fittest and all the rest die out. If death did not come from the sin of Adam and Eve, then it had to come from God Himself. And that is a very different God than the one of the Bible.
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Again, Dr. Mohler has already covered this topic, and very well: http://www.albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=4336. Bill's statement that "most Americans, by far, still are Christian (however they would define that)" indicates something of what the article is saying. It doesn't matter how one person or another defines being a Christian. It matters how being a Christian is defined. There is one definition, not many. Like a room full of mirrors, only one image is the real thing. Everyone else is just using the word for their own purposes.
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"[O]bviously unconstitutional"? Really? Why? What "establishment of religion" would that law be "respecting"? And isn't that a state law? The Constitution only forbids Congress from establishing a law respecting an establishment of religion. If all the law does is acknowledge our dependence on God, our Founding Fathers did that by starting their sessions with prayer. That would be the same Founding Fathers that wrote or voted on the Constitution, so I'm sure they had some idea what they meant by that First Amendment.
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I always enjoy reading Dr. Mohler, and he covered these actions of the ELCA: http://www.albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=4325. It is truly sad that a group of people whose namesake stood unmoveable on the statement "unless I am convinced by Scripture" could so easily take a path that disregards and denies Scripture.
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Bill, Your words are only slightly less appalling than Katharine Jefferts Schori. You really have to twist yourself up in a knot to come out with anything positive out of her statement. Why can't she just mean what she says? And what she says is in direct denial of the work of Jesus, the Apostles, and the Early Church. To hear her, that Ethiopian Phillip talked to in Act 8 had no business getting "saved" - he just needed to be part of a group. I also found it interesting that for no necessary reason you felt obliged to tell us one of the groups that came out against her heretical statement also peskily held on to other Biblical teachings. The nerve of these Christians, wanting to obey God's explicit commands - how annoying.
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Susan, May I ask you a question? If God directly told you to do something, something that you didn't like, something you found repulsive, something that went completely against your nature, but you knew it was God that told you do it, would you do it?
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KCFreeThinkers.org: No, I don't understand how you feel about the production of one of the best preserved set of writings in antiquity. No, I don't understand how you feel about the concepts of the Bible, some of which have been lauded by non-Christians that the world has considered great. No, I don't understand how you feel about moving away from the Bible as a move toward truth. What is the basis of your truth? How do you know it is truth? Because science says so? Science can't make up its mind whether eggs are good for you or not. I do understand that all that exists could not exist if there were no God. I do understand that everywhere I look, including inwardly, there is evil that offends a holy God. I do understand that there was a preacher named Jesus who said a lot of good things, and claimed to be God, and claimed that He would prove it by rising from the dead, and was crucified. I do understand that either this Jesus had to be a liar, or a lunatic (both of which would indeed make Him irrelevant), or the Lord He said He was. I do understand that almost every one of His closest disciples was put to death because they would not recant their claim that Jesus was the resurrected Lord. I do understand that many people will die for all sorts of things they are mistaken about, but no one will die for something they know to be a lie. Therefore, these disciples were not lying about Jesus being alive, and they could hardly be mistaken about it, since Rome could have shut the whole upstart religion down with the simple production of a body. So it is illogical to conclude anything but that Jesus is resurrected based on witnesses who would not recant even under duress (a greater testimony than most stories you read in the news and believe), and that therefore His other claims must be true as well. It is on that logic that I have hope in this life and the next.
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Red Biddy: I don't think I am grasping the wrong end of the stick with what I said. I understand that Bill starts out saying that he sees a mix of patriotism and religion that he feels needs to be corrected. But he develops that thought further so that by the end, he promotes the idea that no country should think of itself as having anything worth being patriotic about - each one is just one of many. Being patriotic, from what he encourages, robs other countries of being special, too. It's kind of like schools these days that don't want to give bad marks or bad grades, because they don't want those students feeling any worse than the ones that did well. For the time being anyway, we have something very special in this country. We should be very enthusiastic about it.
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KCFreeThinkers.org: You sure spent a lot of time and space writing about who I might be only to conclude that it is irrelevant. For those who are curious, I am a supply preacher, and my initials are DJ (and I was a DJ for a year many many years ago).
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To understand that God is directly involved in our nation is not "confusing" politics and religion. Bill says to draw a distinction between religion and patriotism. But he seems to be saying more than that. He seems to be saying that patriotism is wrong.
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Susan: "Will wrote, 'Everyone is saved, so have a ball!' Yes, yes, YES! This is one of those rare moments when I can totally agree with something you've said." So does that mean you were being sarcastic, too? :)
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Susan (from yesterday): "It's true that different people feel the Holy Spirit is leading them in different ways." Not in matters of right and wrong. Yes, He led Peter to stay in Jerusalem and Paul to wander through Europe. Yes, He leads some to be missionaries and some to be a witness in their workplace. But when it comes to issues of right and wrong, the Holy Spirit is unchanging.
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Susan (from yesterday): "Why is it so hard to accept that the Bible was written by individuals who were very much influenced by their own limited perspectives about what was right and normal?" Because that is not what the Bible says about itself. The Bible says that it is the Word of God. That is what it said in the Old Testament, starting with Moses, and was reaffirmed in the New Testament ("Every little bit of the whole of Scripture is God-breathed" II Timothy 3:16). If what the Bible says about itself is false, then we have no reason to believe anything it says. And Christianity itself is done for, for Jesus is made to be a liar when He talked about the importance of every jot and every tittle of the Law and the Prophets (the Old Testament), or when He talked about living on every word that comes from the mouth of God while quoting Old Testament Scripture.
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I wonder how the same "Holy Spirit" who led the Episcopal Church "in the direction of same-sex blessings" could also lead the vast majority of the worldwide Anglican Church to condemn homosexuality? The answer must obviously be that it is not the same spirit. To determine which is the Holy Spirit and which is a false spirit, it is a matter of comparing to what God has already said on the subject in His Word, that homosexuality is wrong.
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Thanks to all who answered my question yesterday. I am still giving the subject a great deal of thought. Although most every answer indicated that seeing a Christian drink alcohol (but not drunk) would not cause them to be seen as hypocritical or of questionable Christian character, I did find a survey that showed that 14% of people do see even one drink of alcohol as a sin. The Bible does not specifically say that God does not want us to drink even one drink of alcohol. But one of the Scriptures cited yesterday actually implies abstinence rather than discourages it. Paul instructs Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach. That he had to tell Timothy to do that indicates that Timothy was intentionally abstaining from alcohol, and Paul, rather than tell him to get over it, told him alcohol does have a legitimate medicinal use.
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Sorry for the off-topic question (like that never happens here). But I have been thinking a lot recently about the perception of alcohol and the Christian. This wouldn't be a scientific poll in any way (although if anyone knows of one they could point me to, I would appreciate it), but it would be some interesting antedoctal information. When you see someone that you know is a Christian drinking alcohol (not drunk), what do you think? If you are a non-Christian, does it make you think that Christian is hypocritical, not really living out what they believe? If you are a Christian, does it make you question whether that person is a Christian? Or does it have absolutely no effect on how you perceive that person? Thanks in advance.
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Susan, I'm not judging homosexuals. I am stating that homosexuality is a sin, because God against whom it is a sin says so, just as He says murder and adultery are sins against Him. It is not unexpected that you would quote the most misused verse in the Bible. That verse certainly does not mean that we can't understand what sin is and verbalize that to others. Jesus tells us we will know a tree by (judging) its fruit. And there are other references that specifically instruct us to judge. By telling me not to judge, you are judging that I am judgmental (which I don't think I am). The fact remains that we can know (generically) what God considers sin, and would be unloving NOT to speak out about it. We are otherwise leaving people free without warning to anger an Almighty God.
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Susan, Each of us has a "besetting sin" or sins, those things which come "from the inside" that we are prone to do even though it is explicitly against God's expressed will. When God gives us His final answer, we are idiots playing a dangerous game to think it might not be. "Prayer, logic, reasoning, study, and discussion" may all be ways of trying to get away from what we really need to do, obey.
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Danforth's comments seem to indicate that we are incapable of knowing God's opinion on anything. I think we are quite capable of knowing how God feels about several things (although certainly not everything), but we want to ignore the plain and simple truth and we make up rationalizations against God's truth. For centuries, we knew exactly how God felt about homosexuality. But we've made up false truths about what homosexuality is, and we've made up a false God who only loves, and we are able to push the plain and simple truth away. For centuries, we knew exactly how God felt about abortion. But we've made up new things to call the pre-born baby, and we've elevated personal autonomy over personal responsibility, and despite advanced ability to see into the womb and despite advanced ability to keep very premature babies alive, we are able to push the plain and simple truth away.
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I wouldn't want to infringe on anyone's privacy, but it would be nice to put names to faces. Perhaps if the people in the photo Bill has posted would be willing to identify only themselves, that would be helpful.
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Susan, The answer to your WHO question is the same One that made clothing for Adam and Eve.
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