Missional has already been coopted - evident by the Ed Stetzer/David Fitch video you did. I love the Peterson quote "The Word became flesh and blood and moved into the neighborhood." This is the best of the missional conversation. That being, incarnation right where you are, i.e. your neighborhood. I get the impression that many are still convinced the attractional model can somehow pull this off while still being a big mean consumerist machine. I am not persuaded. I can't barely get the rudder of my little Vineyard church to make the course correction. We have been attractional for so long, it is too hard to think about change. "What, you mean you want me to engage with my neighbors?" Well, yes, and your family, friends, coworkers, kids coaches, kids friend's parents, etc. Change is slow. I am currently discussing how the Vineyard Movement is positioned to emerge as a missional reality at my blog: http://jasonsmith.wordpress.com/ Hope to see you there.

Is that really what Frank Shaeffer believes? If it is even remotely true, the Kingdom of God is in more trouble than I ever imagined.

Ryan, Have you seen George Barna's new book, The Seven Faith Tribes? If not, I'll wrap it up for you in a paragraph. Barna has done decades of research on faith and how it is expressed in the USA. It is shocking, but 2/3 or America claims to be Christian. Barna reconciles this with two categories. Casual Christians and Captive Christians. Casual Christians look at the Christian Life as a category in their life. It is something they do one day a week, in a prayer at night, etc. Captive Christians understand themselves to be bond servants of Christ. They have a biblical world view, and live accordingly, etc. In other words, Christian is something they are, and what they do is a reflection of that relationship. I think your questions here ask the bigger question, are you or do you wanna be a Captive Christian? I have found that in my church, I have about 20 people who are Captive Christians. The other 50 or so, are casual. If you ask, they will say they are Christians. They might even accept a laundry list of propositions about the Christian Life. But when it comes down to it, Christianity is something they do in addition to all the other things that define them. That 20 or so, are sold out bondservants. I think my ministry is all about transitioning people from either a non-Christian perspective or a casual Christian perspective to a Captive Christian perspective. And that, my friend, is hard work. I tend to just participate in it, because God is causing it to grow, not me!!! What say you?

Ryan, Great stuff. I think you are on to something. I think this is maybe, on a deeper level, the cost of discipleship - period. We do a disservice to people by not unpacking the cost of discipleship more clearly. Jason

Dave, I'm pretty into Rohr. I recently saw him live. He is working out, publicly and supposedly in writing, a Contemplative Christianity piece. A Note on that: Rohr dictates his books, so his writing is exactly like his speaking. It's kinda weird actually. Mostly he seems focused on the path of descent and how it leads one into a non-dual reality. A non either/or reality. An embrace of mystery, suffering, and joy amidst it all. (Practical, it is not.) I have been chewing on your comments here for a few days. I don't know much about John Wimber as a person, but I would say, having studied Rohr and stage theory a little, that John had been on the path of descent and come through the "wall" at some level if he was able to hang out with small groups of people at the end of his life. Wimber had every (worldly) reason to feed on his ego and refuse to speak to less than 1000 people at a time. I have heard mixed things about Wimber's leadership style and his ego, but if he was able to humbly engage those kinds of audiences at that phase or stage of his life, he had experienced the path of descent on some significant levels. Just a thought I was having. On the practicality of Rohr, I think the issue for Evangelicals or however we define ourselves. American Protestants? Maybe. Contemplative life is in complete contrast to our way of life. Rohr speaks from an assumption - his listener is at least a novice in Contemplative Living. He doesn't attempt to help you get there. He assumes you are living a contemplative life. I think this is why the experiential side of Charismatic leaning folks is so important. Many have left the faith of their past for an experiential version of the faith. In Catholic circles, that is contemplative mysticism. It is a true ancient/future reality. Rohr speaks of the ancient mystics with a gleam in his eye. He is one of them. If you are not, he is very difficult to get! His approach does not fit into categories of quiet time, devotional reading, etc. In person he says, most if not all, people have to spend time in the "fundamentalist" stage. It is necessary to build that foundation. He claims to be bent in this direction. If you read Enneagram and other stuff, his bent is to be legalistic and rule oriented. (I don't know how you can live the cloistered life without having that in you?) would recommend his book "Everything Belongs" to those getting started. It doesn't have any exercises in it or anything, but it sheds light on the transition from fundamentalist to contemplative. Keating has an intro to the Contemplative Life. Also, check out The Spiritual Disciplines Handbook by Adele Calhoun. (The best book of its kind!) It is filled with exercises!!! The practice of "detachment" exercises can get someone on the right track. These include The Prayer of Examen, Discernment, etc.

Is it really the dominant position? Or the loudest and most obnoxious, so it gets press? I've been reading Barna's 7 Faith Tribes and if his research is correct, which I imagine it is, only 11 percent of the population falls into a category that would tend to argue for the "anti-science" approach. Of that 11 percent, I'm sure at least half or more are not convinced, or firm in a young earth or anti-darwanism approach to science. Especially those that are under 40? But, this is an interesting question, because the Christian Worldview does ask you to suspend belief in the naturalist worldview. I mean, prayer working, is absolutely insane. Belief in a God that is active and alive and has sent His Spirit to continue a personal face to face relationship with His people is CRAZY. Who would believe, faced with the scientific evidence, that that CRAZY idea would have any worth?

John, Thanks for this. I look forward to it. I am preaching through 1 Corinthians right now and unity is such an issue. Paul's utter dependence on Christ and Him crucified in the power of the Spirit (the message of the cross) is critical for us today, if we are to understand unity. I look forward to more on this. Jason

Dr. Armstrong, I second Richard. Could you post a few book titles to get one started engaging Eastern Orthodox thinking? Thanks, Jason

Happy Birthday. I celebrated by following my mentor to the ER. I hit my extremely tall head on the short garage door (it's handle to be precise) and was awarded with 9 staples. I hope you are healing. Sending up prayers for you on your 67th. Jason

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/03/why-arent-you-really-good-at-graphic-design.html I guess the answer to bad graphics is not no graphics, just good graphics.

I am trying this again. http://jasonsmith.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/a-boomer-in-the-pew-win-a-calfskin-version-of-the-esv-study-bible/ Here's hoping I win!!!