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Roger Pham
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Why not just have a separate fueling island in larger gas stations that contains a dispenser for pure gasoline without ethanol nor aromatics, and a separate dispenser for ethanol + aromatics? Why not devise a way to retrofit existing cars to contain a separate tank for ethanol + aromatics, having a built-in second fuel pump to piggy back onto the main fuel rail in order to supply high-octane additive on on-demand basis? I can guarantee that power and low-end- torque as well as high-end-torque would increase to provide more satisfying drive, plus a gain in cruise fuel economy, due to faster and more efficient combustion with the start of combustion nearer to TDC. This would also be great for turbocharged engines.
If this battery pack can be split in 4 to make 4 of 13.5 kWh battery packs for PHEV, then the warranty would still cover 150k miles of all-electric driving, over 10 years, which is equivalent to almost 200 k miles of combined electric and engine driving, which would be more practical. A PHEV would only need a tiny engine, which could be a turbocharged 1-liter 3-cylinder engine capable of 123 hp to supplement the electric power train, to replace over 40 kWh of battery capacity. Nearly all PHEV's made today have too big engines, which make the vehicle more heavy, cost more, and taking up valuable internal space. It is about time for a clean-sheet dedicated PHEV's to maximize the advantages of combined gasoline and electric propulsion systems.
@E-P, Nuclear energy can be regarded as Renewable Energy if and when Fast Breeder Reactor will be proven safe , with very little nuclear waste. Otherwise, nuclear waste is still currently an issue yet to be resolved. "Across the United States, nuclear waste is accumulating in poorly maintained piles. 90,000 metric tons of nuclear waste requiring disposal are currently in temporary storage. The United States, however, has yet to construct a long-term storage solution for this waste, leaving the nuclear material vulnerable to extreme weather events such as hurricanes, rising sea levels, and wildfire." From:
The world's annual spending on energy is $1,800 Billion USD. The cost to build world wide additional H2 storage infrastructure by 2050 amounts to $667 Billion. That may sound like a lot, but dividing by the 30 years from now to 2050 = $22 Billion USD yearly. Dividing $22 B by $1,800 B annual spending on energy = 1.2%. This is an insignificant number in the grand scheme of thing. Instead of a carbon tax on the consumer which would be politically difficult, why not mandate that each energy company must increase the Renewable Energy content of its product by 1% of total its sale volume, annually. For example, if this year the industry-average RE content of energy sold is 10%, the next year, the RE content must be 11%...and so on, for the next 7 years, then will increase by 2% each year, for example, from 17% RE content by year 2027, in 2028, the total RE content will have to be 19%...and so on. A RE credit trading scheme can also be permitted for companies that cannot yet ramp up the RE content of its energy products. In this fashion, we will be guaranteed to reach goal without any hardship.
EP stated: "Going to huge efforts to capture and store intermittent flows of energy is a fool's errand. " Reply: Yet, that is the basis of all forms of life on Earth, and that was THE ONLY energy source for all human civilizations prior to the discovery of fossil fuel. Photosynthesis is 0.5-1% efficient, while current PV panels can obtain 20% efficiency which result in 15% efficiency when storing solar energy as Hydrogen. So, we have a huge efficiency gain of 20 folds using PV panels vs crops and forest. There is no denying that nuclear energy is also very viable energy source, but with Renewable Energy, we are picking the lowest hanging fruit, and we can supplement RE with nuclear in locations where RE is not cost-effective. Furthermore, nuclear energy is very important for space travel in the near future, to greatly shorten the duration of interplanetary trips, so nuclear energy must be conserved as much as possible, for future generations.
@skierpage, Even when the Hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels, the CO2 can be sequestered in depleted oil and gas wells to avoid CO2 emission. When this Hydrogen will replace the Natural gas in local piping system, we will be able to avoid CO2 and emission and other pollution like NOx, CO, and HC. This will permit the continual contribution of the current Energy Industry as allies instead of being opponents. One major advantage of H2 over NG is that it can be used in Fuel Cells to generate electricity silently and non-polluting, thus permitting distributed combined heat and power generation that can double the efficiency of utilization. Right now, only 1/2 of the energy in natural gas result in electricity at your home, while all the heat is being wasted, 43% in the power plant cooling tower that requires precious water, and 7% is wasted during power transmission. When H2 is used in home-based FC, we can use the waste heat to make hot water, and keep your room warm in the winters while you charge your EV at night. For homes with heat pump, the heat pump often cannot deliver warm enough air in Northern winters, necessitating the much hotter waste heat from the FC to make the air toasty and comfy. Since Hydrogen is so important in industry and as replacement for Natural Gas, the Hydrogen Economy will come, together with continual growth in Plug-in EV's and fast-charging infrastructures. The big trucks, trains, will run on compressed H2, while future planes will use Liquid H2 due to the extreme lightness of it. Future blended wing and body plane design will have plenty of internal space to carry bulky LH2 tanks without impacting passenger and cargo spaces. Many people will opt for Plug-in FCV whereby they can take advantage of efficient and cheap electricity in Springs and Falls, while use H2 for long distance driving and for when grid electricity will be much more expensive in Winters and Summers.
@Yoatmon, 1.. The CO2 waste during steam reformation of Natural gas is already pure and at 3,000-psi pressure, ready for injection into depleted oil and gas wells as a supercritical liquid. The H2 can be piped to the end users already decarbonized, as a zero-emission fuel. This is important in the interim as solar and wind capacity are being built. We can have zero-emission fuel today. The H2 can be piped to each home via existing natural gas local piping system. 2.. In time, more and more Solar and wind farms will be built to replace depleting natural gas reserves. Using steam instead of water, and counting the Higher Heating Value (HHV) of Hydrogen, will result in over 90% efficiency for electrolysis. 3.. When Hydrogen will be used mainly in the winters with waste heat utilization, we obtain higher efficiency from the fuel cell. For example, your home-based Fuel Cell unit can charge your EV or your Plug-in FCV during a cold winter night, with the waste heat used to keep your bedroom warm. In the AM, you do your initial drive using the FC for waste heat to warm up the cabin, and then shut down the FC and continue your trip on battery power. 4.. In the summers, the waste heat from H2 used in distributed heat and power co-generation can be used in vapor-absorptive cooler to provide cooling, thus extending the efficiency of the power generator. 5.. In Springs and Falls, the mild temperatures greatly lessen energy demand, while generous sun and wind energy will result in vast amount of grid-excess electricity to charge your Plug-in FCV (PFCV), to commute mainly using very cheap grid electricity. 6.. In the Summers, energy demand is the highest of all seasons, double or even triple, depending on latitude, while the solar and wind energy cannot keep up with such huge demand, forcing the use of home-based FC or gas-turbine power plants, and this will raise the price of electricity several folds. As such, it may be cheaper to drive your Plug-in FCV using Hydrogen. 7.. With future advance batteries that can provide 650-mi of range for BEV's, we can use 1/5th of this pack to make a Plug-in FCV with 100-mi of electric range, in order to make 5 times more PFCV's for the same amount of precious high-energy-density battery available. Each of these 100-mi PFCV can be driven 90% of the time on electricity alone. So, the superior efficiency of battery will still be preserved, while using H2-FC system to produce 5 times more vehicles out of a given quantity of battery. So, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, as battery technology and energy density will gradually improve, BOTH PFCV and BEV will benefit. So, the energy picture will be quite complex, and we will be using different forms of energy at different times, depending on which will be most available and which will be the cheapest. Certainly, we will use Solar and Wind electricity directly whenever available, while resorting to Hydrogen whenever this will be necessary. Note that Hydrogen will be very important for the production of fertilizer, for steel production, for space heating, for chemical industry, and for trucks, trains, ships, and planes in the form of liquid H2... etc...
fireofenergy stated: "Why extract hydrogen from natural gas, when NG is the best way to store the hydrogen? " Reply: Extract the Hydrogen from the Natural gas and sequester the CO2 waste product back into depleted oil and gas well. In this way, we can use fossil fuel without CO2 emission into the atmosphere. >>>>>"Imagine, 3x the solar fields!" Reply: Yes, imagine 3x the solar fields, 3x bigger capacity than the grid's peak demand...because electricity is only 1/3 to 1/4 of total energy consumption of society. Other than grid electricity, society consumes energy in the form of natural gas for heating and industrial use like production of Hydrogen for the synthesis of fertilizer and other industrial chemicals, and coal for steel production, and petroleum for transportation. So, we will need 3x or even bigger solar fields and wind farms than peak grid electricity demand...such that on days of low combined solar and wind output, we will still be able to satisfy grid demand, while on days of grid-excess solar and wind output, we will make Hydrogen to supply our winter heating needs, industrial uses, agriculture, manufacturing, and for long-distance transportation applications in which battery is not cost-effective. In this way, no energy will be wasted, and yet, no grid-energy storage will be needed that can be expensive. Imagine the use of a Plug-in FCV that can use grid electricity during seasons of grid-surplus Solar and Wind power, and that can also use Hydrogen for long-distance driving and during seasons of low Solar and Wind output when the price of grid electricity will shoot up due to shortage.
EP stated: "Back in 2004 I calculated that it would take about 180 GW average electric power to convert the USA from petroleum to battery-electric." Reply: No one is talking about completely replacing battery-electric transportation. You're still in the mindset of dispatchable thermal power plants supplying the grid. When the future will comprise of non-dispatchable Solar and Wind intermittently, and non-dispatchable nuclear plants providing constant base-load, then sometimes we will have too much power that will burn out the grid, necessitating the storage of this grid-excess by making Hydrogen. Other times, we won't have as much, needing to fire up hydrogen-fueled thermal power plants for backup. In this fluctuating situation, the best option would be a Plug-in FCEV to run on grid electricity during the seasons with surplus of RE like in Springs and Falls due to low electricity prices. In Winters and Summers, overall energy consumption will exceed RE supply, necessitating the use of Hydrogen due to much higher prices of grid electricity because backup hydrogen-fueled power plants will have to crank up to make up for the shortage of RE. The use of a Plug-in FCV will permit the users to choose the cheapest source of energy, depending of season.
Current PHEV designs are inferior in acceleration and cornering, as well as internal space, in comparison to Tesla's Model 3, therefore aren't not selling well. GM has discontinued the Volt, and Honda has really limited the availability of the Clarity PHEV. To compete with BEV from Tesla's Model 3 and Model Y, a new clean-sheet-design PHEV must have comparable acceleration and internal space. This is a tall order to fill. 1. Let's start by imagining a liftback PHEV having 15-kWh battery pack capable of 180-hp output to the motor, and a 3-cylinder 1-liter turbocharged engine capable of 130 hp, for a total of 310 hp, in a mid-size vehicle with 3,400 lbs curb weight for plenty of acceleration. 2.. The battery pack will be mounted on the floor of the vehicle to preserve trunk space and to lower the center of gravity for cornering performance. 3. The engine will be mounted in the front, driving a mechanical CVT, while the e-motor will be mounted in the rear axle, for 4-WD capability. This is not hard to do, yet car makers keep resist making compelling PHEV's in order to compete with Tesla.
Why would the Prius contain any more precious metals than any other comparable vehicle in the market? It has a tiny 1.5 liter engine that puts out barely 76 hp, in comparison to a Corolla of the same vintage that has 120-hp engine, thus needing bigger catalytic converter. Both the Prius and the Corolla must meet the same emission standard , yet the Corolla's engine puts out much more power.
This Nikola Badger pickup truck is a serious "one-upmanship" from Tesla Cybertruck. Not only does it has a lot of power and probably will have the fastest 0-60 time, but it has the capability of rapid refill in 3 minutes to travel 300 miles, and dual-energy-source security, PLUS dual power plant redundancy, and extended outdoor high power electricity supply of 12 kW, without impacting the trip home... like in the BEV truck when all the energy is drained and can't go home. However, the battery pack can be reduced to 50 kWh without impacting the truck's mission for those without the need to brag or to show-off, while saving tens of thousands of $ in purchasing cost, plus may be over 1,000 lbs of weight saving that can translate to higher payload. Perhaps the Badger will be offered with different power versions with various battery capacity to satisfy different customers, and may be a pure BEV version as well. Different strokes for different folks! Now, someone is really getting at what I've always suggested., a serious and no-compromise Plug-in FCV. Now you can have you can have it ALL. A NO-compromise vehicle in all aspects, even in environmental sustainability.
One added advantage of the H2-FC propulsiion for sea vessel is the availability of pure water for human consumption, as long as there will H2 fuel available to power the FC system.
This is good for traveling on unfamiliar routes, and for clueless motorists. For me, I have been able to take advantage of streets with optimized traffic light timing, and by knowing the timing of each traffic lights, I have been able to drive for miles without stopping during daily commute. Of course, if all motorists have this info indicated on their dash board, traffic would be far smoother and less congestion, accidents can be avoided, fuel can be saved with lower emission.
@E-P, Chevron and Aramco are both energy companies, so obviously they are interested in Hydrogen, which will replace fossil fuel usage by the end-users to avoid atmospheric CO2 emission to meet Global Warming target. At the present, fossil fuel can be steam-reformed to make H2, with the almost-pure and high-pressure CO2 by-product ready for injection into existing oil and gas wells to avoid CO2 emission into the atmosphere. Of course, when electrolytic H2 from RE will be cost-competitive, then fossil fuel will be phased out. Either way, H2 is the most viable way to decarbonize future energy consumption by the end-users NOW, even with continual consumption of fossil fuel, while waiting to ramp up solar and wind collectors, which will take many decades.
Good point, TLJ. I was about to say those points. I'm still waiting for the likes of the hybrid trim of the Camry or Avalon having a lift-back for more luggage capacity and more versatile cargo handling. The specs of this RAV4 Prime are all good, but I just don't like the boxy appearance, and the low aerodynamic efficiency that will really show up when you are trying to keep up with interstate traffic traveling at 80 mph. On the other hand, the current Prius looks very sleek and very aerodynamic, but it is a tad on the small size, and especially with anemic power of merely 121 hp. Toyota should be planning on applying the existing 180-hp hybrid power train of the hybrid Corolla 2,0 liter to the Prius chassis to relieve the anemic performance of the Prius and to regain lost market share. A Camry hybrid or Avalon hybrid with the lift-back design and high aerodynamic efficiency like the Prius would be PERFECT.
@EP, Furthermore, EROI of solar PV is found to be around 16 and getting higher, while EROI for wind is around 20. Very doable.
@EP, You assume Natural Gas mixed with H2 at various proportions, but in the UK, the plan is to replace NG totally with 100% H2, so that the gas combustion appliances only need to have the gas jet changed once, to increase the fuel flow rate with respect to air intake. So, only H2-FC is necessary, and not having to deal with NG-FC at all. Your assumption about NG pipeline already run at maximum capacity does not hold true at all times of the year, depending on the season. Summer and Winter demand for NG is much higher than Spring and Fall, however, with the case of H2, it ain't necessarily so. This is because a society depending on a 50:50 mix of solar vs wind will have a lot of solar energy in the summer, so doesn't need H2 in the same amount as a society depending heavily on NG for electricity, and wind is plentiful in the winter, so if 50% of energy comes from wind, then winter will not need H2 as much as needing NG, especially with distributed power and heat generation. Flow speed of NG in long-distance pipelines must be kept low in order to keep drag loss to manageable level. H2 will be produced mostly locally, and stored in nearby geologic storage, so will only travel a small fraction of NG pipelines, thus can flow several times faster for a given pressure drop in comparison to a long-distance pipeline, when needing to meet occasional periods of high demand. Hopefully this time less BS than before, and thanks for your valuable feedback.
@EP: The UK is in the process of replacing natural gas with H2 in their piping system. They have many publications which should answer your many questions. The use of H2 to replace NG is no longer an academic issue, but is being implemented as the quickest way to eliminate CO2 and methane emission, the two main GHG that cause the most heat retention. The NG is being turned into H2 right from the source, while the resulting high-pressure and pure CO2 stream is immediately injected down into oil and gas wells, at next to zero additional cost in efficiency nor money, thus largely eliminating CO2 and natural gas emission from the NG distribution system. Talking about killing 2 birds with one stone. Briefly, the low energy content of the H2 is made up for by the very high speed of sound in H2 at 1270 m/s vs NG at 446 m/s, meaning that the H2 can be flowed at ~3 times the maximum speed that NG can be flowed in a pipeline before reaching non-compressibility issue. Furthermore, H2 has lower viscosity than NG, permitting high-speed flow without incurring much more friction loss. The lower volumetric storage density of H2 vs NG is made-up for by: 1.. The combination of solar and wind which complement one another, such that summer is abundant in solar but winter is more abundant in wind, thus greatly reduce the seasonal e-storage quantity, in comparison to dependency to fossil fuel as of now. 2.. The use of combined power and heat in distributed generation setting in the winter, that permits charging of EV's at night while using the waste heat for bed-room heating, as well as evening electricity use while waste heat used for hot-water heating. This is more energy-efficient than the waste of 50% of the natural gas' thermal energy by the power plant during power generation and power transmission. 3.. Multizone home heating and home A/C use can reduce energy consumption to 1/2-1/3 of current home energy consumption for cooling and heating. 4.. The use of ice as thermal energy storage for home cooling can significantly reduce the use of H2 or natural gas for home cooling during sun-down period.
@EP: >>>>>"Your mass solar farm is in darkness when your demand peak hits, Roger. What are you going to do about that?" Answer: Produce Hydrogen during solar peak, at 82% efficiency LHV and as much as 95% efficient HHV, by using Sunfire or H2Pro electrolysis techs. Store the H2 within the local residential piping system for natural gas, which can tolerate even 100% H2. Seasonal quantity of H2 can be stored in existing underground natural gas storage system. In the evening, fire up the residential fuel cells for electricity while the waste heat is used for making hot water for bathing, dish washing and laundry. At 95%-efficient electrolysis, calculated based on HHV, the round trip efficiency can be above 90%, which can easily rival the most efficient battery storage system. In winter nights, the home-based FC can charge your EV while the waste heat can keep your room warm. Summer A/C cooling energy can be stored as ice, to be used to cool the house later, since ice is the cheapest form of thermal energy storage. So, a water/ice tank is needed nearby the outdoor A/C condenser unit to produce ice using daytime solar energy. Even with nuclear energy, energy storage is still necessary, because peak demand is usually more than twice the average demand, and a nuclear power station should be run at near peak output to recoup the high investment cost. So, we will still need massive grid-utility energy storage capacity at seasonal scale, too big to be satisfied by battery alone, because spring and fall use far less energy than summer and winter, while the nuclear output is constant. Besides, we will still need to make Hydrogen from nuclear energy for making fertilizer, chemical feedstock, steel furnace, and to power surface transportation either directly or combined with CO2 to make liquid fuels. There is now at least 2 separate techs for storing H2 at 4-5 times the volumetric density of previous, or twice the density of liquid H2, but at only 10-120 bar room temperature, instead of at 700 bar. So, we should look at the H2 economy as an enabler of both RE and Nuclear Energy and not as an opposition. H2 and battery should complement each other and should not be viewed as being in competition to one another.
@EP and Thomas, PV panels could be installed over existing parking lots, departments stores, supermarkets, apartments, and warehouses. For example, let's take the case of Los Angeles, CA, have 4 million people over 503 sq mi area = 1,287 sq km, having peak electricity demand of 6,500 MW, with average demand around 45% = peak x 4,000 hrs annually. Solar capacity factor in that region average around 2,000 hrs annually over rated capacity, thus is roughly 1/2 of average demand, thus will need around 13,000 MW of nameplate solar capacity. Each square km = 1,000,000 sq m and at 20% efficiency = 200 MW in nameplate capacity. Thus, dividing the 13,000 MW capacity needed over 200 MW per sq km = 65 sq km. Thus, out of a total surface area of 1,287 sq km of LA city, it clearly NOT difficulty to find 65 sq km area of parking lots, apartments, warehouses, factories, supermarkets and department stores to mount solar PV panels. The thing is, you can't put your nuclear power station anywhere within LA city limit, thus the beauty of solar energy.
Let me sum up the specs of these technologies: 1.. H2Pro: 30% more H2 produced per kWh consumed, as compared to current tech. Half of CAPEX per kW, and not requiring precious metal, and the H2 is released at different time than the O2 gas, thus increase safety and reduce construction cost and maintenance cost. 2. GRZ Technologies: When hydrogen molecules are put in contact with the storage material, the molecules are dissociated in hydrogen atoms. These atoms are then absorbed in the interstitial sites of the metallic compound. This process occurs at near-ambient pressure (below 10 bar), is extremely safe and 100% reversible. The hydrogen density achieved in this state is extremely high, twice as high as liquid hydrogen and four times higher than pressurized gas. This allows practical packaging of H2 storage in refueling stations, cars and bikes without taking up more space than current gasoline storage system. The much lower pressure required here means lower cost, less maintenance, and higher reliability for the H2-filling system.
Just use Hydrogen directly, either in combustion engine or in fuel cell.
So, steel gears are cheaper than copper wiring and permanent magnets.
The Prius badly needs the 2.0 liter 180 hp power train to avoid sagging sales in the USA.